Failure to reduce Maori reoffending

The Waitangi Tribunal says the Crown is not prioritising the reduction of the rate of Maori reoffending and is in breach of its Treaty obligations to protect Maori interests and to treat Maori equitably. File Photo.

The Crown is breaching its Treaty of Waitangi obligations by failing to prioritise the reduction of the high rate of Maori reoffending, the Waitangi Tribunal announced today.

The undisputed disparity between Maori and non-Maori reoffending rates is longstanding and substantial, says the tribunal in a statement.

High Maori reoffending rates contribute to the disproportionate imprisonment of Maori, who currently make up half of New Zealand's prisoners in spite of being only 15 per cent of the national population.

The report released today, Tu Mai te Rangi! looks at how the Crown, through the Department of Corrections, is failing to meet its Treaty responsibilities to reduce Maori reoffending rates.

While the Justice sector announced in February 2017 a broad target to reduce Maori reoffending, the Department has no specific plan or strategy to reduce Maori reoffending rates, no specific target to reduce Maori reoffending rates, and no specific budget to meet this end.

The Tribunal therefore concludes the Crown is not prioritising the reduction of the rate of Maori reoffending and is in breach of its Treaty obligations to protect Maori interests and to treat Maori equitably.

The Tribunal says for the Crown to be acting consistently with its Treaty obligations in this context, it must be giving urgent priority to addressing disproportionate Maori reoffending rates in clear and convincing ways.

The inquiry follows a claim filed by Tom Hemopo, a retired senior probation officer. The Tribunal, consisting of Judge Patrick Savage, Bill Wilson QC, Tania Simpson, and Professor Derek Lardelli, heard the claim under urgency in Wellington in July 2016.

The Tribunal looked at recent efforts by the Department to reduce the overall rate of reoffending by 25 per cent. It says the most recent statistics supplied by the Crown show Maori progress toward this target has slowed dramatically, while the gap between Maori and non-Maori progress toward the target has widened.

The Waitangi Tribunal finds the Crown in breach of its Treaty obligations by failing to prioritise the reduction of the high rate of Maori reoffending relative to non-Maori.

But it finds the Crown has not breached its partnership obligations, given that the Department of Corrections is making good faith attempts to engage with iwi and hapu. However, the Tribunal says the Crown must live up to its stated commitment to develop its partnerships with Maori.

Among the Tribunal's recommendations is that the Department work with its Maori partners to design and implement a new Maori-specific strategic framework, set and commit to a Maori-specific target for the Department to reduce Maori reoffending rates, and regularly and publically report on the progress made towards this.

The Tribunal also recommends the Crown include a dedicated budget to appropriately resource the new strategic focus and target.



Posted on 30-04-2017 15:45 | By Papamoaner

More incoherent gobbledegook. That was just a minor academic point you were being corrected on. Forget about it now and get back on topic

@ Dear Papa's

Posted on 30-04-2017 15:07 | By Roadkill

So are we agreed then that "Boot Camps" means the real thing as run by the army primarily, not half-baked and created-look-a-like but fake soft soap other alternate, Right?


Posted on 30-04-2017 07:21 | By Papamoaner

Boot camps can be army, navy, or airforce, but usually refers to army. It's origin is from US military, WW2 pertaining to new recruits doing basic training. In the NZ army, we call them "grunts" The term boot camp has lately been hijacked and applied to privately run camps.

Hey Roadkill

Posted on 29-04-2017 16:23 | By Papamoaner

We've been wondering when you'd come out of hiding . We're still waiting for answers to our specific questions on maori reoffending. No more slippery sidestepping the debate. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen mate. Cat got your tongue? (Yawn).

@ R bell and paps moaner

Posted on 29-04-2017 15:35 | By Roadkill

Looks like you are at last coming around to my initial views, its only taken three weeks or so for you to hear your own voices and evolve a bit in the right direction. It Is obvious many factors influence kids, however if the foundation is there is sound, is solid and then applied in the right way through childhood into the teens then parents will be adding a good quality member to society when they reach adulthood. There are no good lessons free handouts, or the put the hand out and receive for nothing mentality that certainly RB certainly loves and cherishes and some. Are we really making progress here?

@ maybelle

Posted on 29-04-2017 15:28 | By Roadkill

Mostly agree, however learning levels have dropped to, perhaps it relates to the evolving attitude of no respect for each other, others property and so on, obviously a wide issue that teachers should nto have to deal with. There is a need to parents to lift their game, do the job they should. Obviously if a parent has a limited horizon and a limited expectation for their kids then equally the kids will be limited by that. There begets the problem.

R. Bell - reoffending

Posted on 29-04-2017 15:25 | By Roadkill

Boot camps are not "army", and of course to be rather seriously obvious about it all, the only reason for them is the failure of parents and home life. As the saying goes ... "little monsters become big monsters" and for sure big monsters are a lot harder to change. So we are ending up with full circle yet again. The real issue is the example set by parents for the kids that period from say 1-7 sets the pattern and path for the kids of what is normal, acceptable and correct and proper behavior etc. I just can believe that you do not get this, don't understand ... why are you endlessly in favour of a "hand out stretched" mentality, and not to take responsibility for self, for own actions and activities ... oh but then your own life, games and desires would all end now wouldn't they!


Posted on 29-04-2017 13:29 | By R. Bell

Your comments make a lot of sense. There is no question the problems we face in this area are complex. Responsible parents predominate, but given the modern day pressures of parenting it is inevitable that children from otherwise good homes, will fall foul of the law. If Mom and Dad are both forced to work, in order to afford such basics as a home and contents, then some children will fail. Peer pressure is a very powerful force and cannot be ignored. As you say 'early intervention' is definitely one important option. All possible options are essentially political, as you can see from many comments on here, it is far easier for some to simply blame parents. They seem quite content to live with that option. Robin Bell.

Spot on the button maybelle

Posted on 29-04-2017 12:34 | By Papamoaner

And a lot of it could be resolved by a mentor. A good mentor is a powerful influence on kids, especially one-on-one. Most kids get a mentor anyway, in the village, a teacher, an uncle, a scout master. Most of us had a hero as kids. The unlucky ones who didn't were the ones who went off the rails. Mine was an older work supervisor who was mad on fishing, strict but fair, and took us kids fishing. So fortunate.

Lost generations

Posted on 29-04-2017 12:17 | By Papamoaner

I had a first-hand experience of a lost generation flying from Perth to Kalgoorlie in a light plane doing a leak inspection on the water pipe. I had never been to Kalgoorlie before. I found a group of interesting looking aboriginie kids sitting on the ground in a circle and walked over to talk to them. My fellow engineer, an Aussie, called out "don't go near them mate, you'll catch a disease." The kids were within earshot of him but just ignored it. They were used to it. It made me feel ill.


Posted on 29-04-2017 12:03 | By Papamoaner

Good comments Robin, but I fear falling on deaf ears. By the way, I replied to you a couple of days ago on that other forum, but for some strange reason it hasn't posted. If not in the next day, I'll repeat it.

Re-offending, respect b4 its 2 late...

Posted on 29-04-2017 11:52 | By maybelle

The re-offending is the problem. As I have seen with many of our troubled young ones, their problems need to be addressed at a young age (10-14) before the badness really sets in. This is the crucial time. The problem seems to be there is not a lot in place to help this age-group to learn to better themselves, heck, a lot do not know that there is better. The army does teach good qualities such as respect and self-worth, and you do not need a high IQ to learn this, our education system I feel relies too heavily on getting good results in literacy to the detriment of learning practical skills which would help the not-so-brainy kids feel good about themselves and hence learn pride and self-worth. My point is, to stop re-offending we need to help them earlier.

Oh! and another thing, roadkill.

Posted on 29-04-2017 11:09 | By R. Bell

By the age of 17. These kids are already hardened streetwise individuals. Whanganui prison had an influx of "Killer Bees" sent from Auckland. Within a few days they had wrecked the games room and other facilities. Average age 18. When dealing with such dis -function, we need highly trained, highly intelligent, highly dedicated councilors. When you and your support group lash out, and solely blame bad parenting, you ignore the ongoing influence of society in general. Put simply Sex Drugs and Rock and Roll, to a degree far beyond anything we faced, personal freedom, far beyond that, that we experienced. History and its effects have to accounted for.Lost generations have to be acknowledged, and included in any effectual remedies. Are you up for it roadkill? Mmmmmm. Robin Bell.

Passing the buck, roadkill,

Posted on 29-04-2017 09:51 | By R. Bell

is exactly what you are doing. Since the end of compulsory service, at least two generations ago,the world has changed dramatically. Court ordered service or "boot camps" have been tried and failed.This thread is about RE- OFFENDING, do you seriously believe the Forces are equipped to take in already hardened criminals numbering in the hundreds. They have no responsibility, nor the means to do it. The only sensible and workable solution, is in the hands of the Correction Dp't. They have the secure facilities, they alone are in a position to re- educate prisoners, but are simply not doing it, to the standard required. You can BLAME parents till the "cows come home" you solve nothing, as usual. Robin Bell.

The need of the army training?

Posted on 28-04-2017 15:04 | By Roadkill

Is reflected in the failure of parents to do their job and for example somehow expect teachers to be parents. Not acceptable to buck pass. So in end result I would happily accept that kids should be required to attend 6-12 months army training/boot camps between the ages of 17-21. I see no issue in this at all, there can only be benefits. If kids are naughty, break the law then a judge should be able to send them early and/or for more. Where is the downside with any of this NB: the wet behind the ears ... tea-totallers ... PCers ... moaners can all take a hike. The socua and worldly betterment stands head and shoulders above as being more important.

@ maybelle

Posted on 27-04-2017 13:44 | By Roadkill

Very good points there, that also raises some of the issues that parent have in the past and less so now fail to instill in their kids. Result: wayward kids from slack homes in general. Certainly discipline and respect are long gone, one only needs to look over the commentaries from some here. The anit-response on an automated basis.


Posted on 27-04-2017 09:24 | By Papamoaner

Yes, it seemed to work quite well for many young people. There are similar "Boot Camps" (an awful Americanism) operating, but I'm unsure of their success. I guess the Army are under-resourced these days, as are the police. If we are going to sentence a young person to do army training, I reckon it should be for a minimum of 1 or 2 years so they can learn some skills that lead on to employment later.


Posted on 27-04-2017 08:11 | By maybelle

When I was younger I recall there was a system in place where, instead of the troubled teenagers being sent to prison or borstal, they were made to do a stint in the army. This taught discipline, respect, pride and selfworth, these attributes seem to be lacking these days. Maybe this system should be brought back.

@ Papamoaner

Posted on 23-04-2017 11:38 | By Roadkill

Employ NZ, yip you are a few days late on that one, been in town a while, pointed you to the place days ago (again) taken a while to get there ... no surprises. they set people up to learn (no idea of why you would want to know about it then?) to get a job (no idea of why you would want to know about it then?) and earn your own income (no idea of why you would want to know about it then?) put a hand out is so mush more simple ... joy your first enlightenment ... (ops a big word)

Pun intented

Posted on 23-04-2017 11:32 | By Roadkill

the correct word is "masseur" you are an expert at attempting to 'massage' the truth into something else desirable and self severing. You are almost as good at it as my new 'friends (wit) as Bell Dey


Posted on 22-04-2017 18:41 | By Papamoaner

Speaking of laughing stock, here beginith the lesson on the difference between long words and wrong words. A masseur is a man who provides massage services. (sounds like Roadkill alright)The word we think you actually wanted, is Messrs, meaning a group of men addressed jointly.Here endeth the lesson. Your ongoing education is important to us. NOW, about those unanswered questions pertaining to maori reoffending. - Will you be long?


Posted on 22-04-2017 12:22 | By Papamoaner

While I seem to have your attention, I thought I might enquire as to how you are progressing towards answering my hitherto unanswered question. Not just me mate, there are others waiting for answers to questions too. Is it a workload issue? Or perhaps an inability to give straight answers to straight questions due to lack of intellect? Perhaps we can help you with it. It must be very stressful being the laughing stock on a forum


Posted on 22-04-2017 12:17 | By Papamoaner

Thanks for the Predictable response. Keep digging, you're nearly there. Nearly up to your chin now. The rest above that is irrelevant - bag full of lost marbles.

@ Papamoaner

Posted on 22-04-2017 11:55 | By Roadkill

I must apologies, I must limit myself to using no more than one syllable words so as you can maybe keep up ... catch up ... learn ... enlighten ... ops to many long words ...


Posted on 22-04-2017 11:00 | By Papamoaner

I see on Sunlive that Bill English has just opened a new training facility called "employ NZ" It seems to be a Tauranga entity, but there are similar places being built up north and down in Lower Hutt. Bit of a mystery. I'm trying to get more details and will post them on here. (for those that care) To the "don't cares" it will be just junk mail, but we don't care about that do we.


Posted on 22-04-2017 08:55 | By R. Bell

we are not meant to understand roadkill. He operates on the presumption that confusion is his best weapon. His support group will agree , no matter how confused they get. His "culture" is political and hierarchical in nature, he believes it to be superior to all others. We call it the "far right" and we all know where that leads. Robin Bell.


Posted on 21-04-2017 17:44 | By Papamoaner

For the love of me, I could make neither head nor tail of Roadkill's last rant, therefore unable to respond to it. But I did manage to get that he thinks we are all "masseurs" Maybe that's the rub! I fell off my chair laughing.What on earth has he been smoking?

Pm opens EmployNZ

Posted on 21-04-2017 17:38 | By Roadkill

Perhaps that is the answer, these wayward people look to improve themselves a bit or a lot and get a real job as a result. But then stealing other peoples stuff is way more fun and exciting, putting a hand out had just getting stuff same same ... why both help self in this world when the silver platter arrived on queue with the snap of the fingers ...

Oh dear, self justifications back?

Posted on 21-04-2017 10:42 | By Roadkill

Actually the cultural is the issue, the more of it the higher the numbers in jail, that is called a correlation. The cultural growth can easily be seen as the linkage here also. One can also spot easily the link between "self-determination desires" and the increase in crime, convictions and jail time. There has been no benefit to say 90-95% of those claiming to have tribal links as the settlements made have not trickled down? There is much moer to this but that should set of masseurs Bell and co well and truly

@ R.Bell

Posted on 21-04-2017 10:23 | By Papamoaner

Spot on Robin! A succinct analysis. If we all pulled together as a community, we could eliminate reoffending. Sadly, there are too many pulling the other way.

This debate

Posted on 21-04-2017 09:59 | By Papamoaner

I think this debate has come down to those who care versus those who don't care, and about to fizzle out


Posted on 21-04-2017 08:39 | By R. Bell

In an earlier comment you said, so therefore you believe that "only Maori can stop Maori re offending" Perhaps the most constructive, enlightened statement you've ever made. That is exactly what the Waitangi Tribunal, the Minister of Corrections and the Manager of Corrections all believe. Resourcing initiatives that include Maori cultural practices and core beliefs, education that includes language, self respect and respect for others, are critical. All of these thing were suppressed for many generations, now we have the opportunity to reverse it all. With or without your support. Robin Bell.


Posted on 19-04-2017 17:51 | By NZer

Anyone that blames something that happened 200 years ago really shows no responsibility for their actions. New immigrants to NZ who have NOTHING and are not white people get on with it and work hard and prosper in NZ. They dont use excuses!!!!!

Still waiting patiently Roadkill

Posted on 19-04-2017 14:45 | By Papamoaner

Still waiting for an answer to my specific question old chap, or are you crabbing again? Is it forthcoming? Are you by any chance actually our other vaporised opponent in disguise????


Posted on 19-04-2017 14:40 | By Papamoaner

Yes, there is some evidence to suggest that a personality is influenced from age two. That can be put down to parents and siblings. The problem is that IF the parents have already had their attitudes compromised by their own childhood events like prejudice and ridicule, then they will pass it on albeit mostly subconsciously. But this parenting influence is only part of the whole story. Roadkill seems to simplistically think it is the WHOLE story, which it aint!Debating various issues can be exhilarating, but when you strike an opponent who just parrots on without coming up with anything new, albeit cause or cure, the repetition becomes tiring and boring.

Right on! Papamoaner,

Posted on 19-04-2017 12:19 | By R. Bell

roadkill attempts to shift all blame to parenting, in spite of his week kneed denial. On a more positive note, and using the prevalent "no names " system, I would like to promote the " pride in parents " analogy. A very proud Maori relative lost his legs in Vietnam, he was 20 yrs old. On his return home he married his nurse. He refused all sympathy, he simply got on with life producing 4 children and adopting another. his art work is well known. Four of his children hold highly qualified jobs and families to be proud of. One,( not the adopted one) went off the rails, and became dis - functional. How do we rationalize that example? does roadkill claim bad parenting is the cause? The mind boggles. Robin Bell.


Posted on 19-04-2017 10:16 | By Papamoaner

You mention stemming the tide at source. Great idea if you have access to the source which in this context is nearly 200 years ago. Agreed, there are more recent sources like for example parenting, but they are only one of several, and likely caused by the original source. Most importantly, we need to apply a fix NOW, and initiatives like targeted maori scholarships is one (just one) effective method that is proven to work, vide my earlier empirical evidence. Or are you going to attempt to say some of those 45 maori doctors might end up in prison? (No, I don't think even Roadkill or the late Captain would go that far). There is another potential side benefit hitherto undiscussed, in that successful scholars will make their parents feel very proud, which is bound to be constructively contagious.


Posted on 19-04-2017 09:04 | By Papamoaner

You want a list of questions? Why, when you already have enough singular questions from various people that you have not yet answered? Just join them all together and you will have a list to die for. Regardless, here is a repeat of my last question that you have again sidestepped. - You implied that you work at the coalface of this reoffending problem, so why are you against maori scholarships? You will find that question in my earlier post ANSWER IT NOW PLEASE or pull the transom bung out and stop wasting our time, Follow the captain who app-ears to have joined Davey Jones. Nobody said maori scholarships are the only fix - just one important fix. Nobody said family environment (parenting etc) isn't a factor, just that it's only ONE factor, not even the main one.

Roadkill, defeats his own arguments.

Posted on 19-04-2017 08:21 | By R. Bell

he claims to work with the under privileged, but also admits to using the the racially charged term "part Maori". His lack of understanding of the subject, shown by the recent proof of the young lady in Auckland, that showed her genes contain only Maori D.N.A. There is no place for roadkill, or anyone else (in the "trade"(of rehabilitation of either prison inmates (Maori or non Maori ) or dysfunctional family groups) who display blatant racist tendencies. Name and shame, must surely apply. Nah! better to protect "democracy" at any price. Robin Bell.

@ Papamoaner

Posted on 18-04-2017 22:16 | By Roadkill

Whatever you don't agree with from my views, please say, provide a list and I can then respond so as you then understand and then can of your own free will accept how it is.

@ Papamoaner

Posted on 18-04-2017 22:15 | By Roadkill

If what I am saying is mostly it then why are you remaining critical of my facts of it. The reality is that most comments here seem to be supportive of dealing with the effects or consequences rather than attempting to stem the tide at source. The source of the majority of issue is when the crims were kids, home life and environment. Should you have seen enough of these cases then with just a small amount of observational skill the pattern will become obvious for shall we say 90-95% of cases where in the mid teens and onward to adulthood the full consequence comes to maturity and the community as a whole pay the full price. Do you agree or not?


Posted on 18-04-2017 18:02 | By Papamoaner

Preaching to yourself? Much of what you say is undisputed, yet you continue to repeat it over and over. Some initiatives you present as if original, have already been dusted and dried. You IMPLY that you are some sort of social worker who knows it all, and that others don't, eg; your armchair analogy. Yet, when quizzed about the contradiction between working at the coal face and being against targeted scholarships, you sidestep the question. In fact you seem to have prior for that. I am beginning to wonder if you are actually one of those armchair chaps in drag. Blaming parents ad nauseum is about all you seem to produce. Please elaborate on some of your other ideas for solving the problem. being a professional in the game, as IMPLIED, you must have many.

Sorry Roadkill, that was what it was all about

Posted on 18-04-2017 16:19 | By Peter Dey

Sorry Roadkill, traffic police were being more lenient toward non-Maori first offenders. Police were told (to remove their anti-Maori bias) that all Maori first offenders had to be given discretion and not prosecuted. That is not Maori privilege. It is removal of discrimination against Maori. And it is no use quoting police statements because they did not want it described as Maori favouritism.

double bunking and foreign born staff

Posted on 18-04-2017 15:14 | By Peter Dey

Two aspects of Government prison policy are worth mentioning. Because the Government has taken a stronger stance over penalties for crime they now do not have enough prison space. Double bunking (having two prison inmates to a cell is now standard policy). This has now made it easier for Maori gangs in prisons to intimidate other prisoners. Maori inmates are most affected by this. Because of the need for increased prison staff there are now more foreign born prison staff. These foreign born staff have no commitment to acknowledging the cultural differences of Maori inmates. Current prison policy is clearly now more damaging to Maori inmates than before. Instead of taking measures to address the excessive number of Maori in prisons the Government is actually making decisions to make the situation worse. The Waitangi Tribunal seems quite justified in its criticism of Government policy as breaching the Treaty.


Posted on 18-04-2017 14:46 | By NZer

Robin will never admit that Maori are responsible for their own actions. Its easier to blame everyone else ah Robin...


Posted on 18-04-2017 14:33 | By Papamoaner

If you want to study to be a doctor of medicine in NZ, you must have an A-Level Bursarybefore you can apply to be a student. However, for many years now the Otago Medical School have been operating a race-based entry regime where maori applicants with a B-Level Bursary can apply. This was to give disadvantaged maori a leg-up, and it has been hugely successful to the advantage of us all. In 2016 there were 45 maori graduates from Otago, who are now doctors throughout the community. Before any predictable commentators jump in and question skill quality, there are no race-based exam dispensations. All students must pass or fail with the same mark targets and assessments. In the science world, some evidence is anecdotal and therefore open to challenge. The evidence I have just presented is empirical, therefore beyond challenge.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 18-04-2017 14:29 | By Roadkill

non Maori being let off? No sorry mate that was not what it was all about, the NZ Police acknowledged that front line officers were being directed to not issue fines/offence notices to Maori offenders so as to help get the offender numbers down. That was the real deal there. Part of that was sending some off to the Marae to adjustment and correction. From the offender numbers, from the jail occupancy, these measures don't seem to have any meaningful impact, except perhaps to teach the offenders about how to get away with not being accountable for what they have done. There is the real issue, the lesson learned isn't being learned now is it.

@ astex

Posted on 18-04-2017 14:25 | By Roadkill

Your comments are reflective of the issues, there has been a significant change in the last 40-50 years, none of it is good in end result. The causes are many but some obvious things stand out as you have noted. The remedy is get back to what works, the basics, the old ways and that starts with educating people about personal values, about lifting expectations for the kids, that they are responsible for the kids future, wellbeing and so on, if you cant do that then don't have them in the first place. Parents should be totally responsible for the care, welfare and upbringing of their kids, what often happens sadly is the self desire/needs get in the way of what is best for the kids. That is a decision that the parents alone "chose" to make, then expect the taxpayer to remedy all else? It makes no sense!

Re-offending - part 2

Posted on 18-04-2017 14:18 | By Roadkill

This is a basic of life, family, the world. If you can not understand that simple concept then the rest of the debate on solutions simply becomes arm chair critic type waste of time. Because if you don't understand the "why" it is happening then you cant discuss the remedy. With all respect Robin, that is blatantly obvious from your recitals, they struggle even to get to the arm-chair critic level. They are totally incomprehensible when lined up with the real issues.

Re-offending rates - Part 1

Posted on 18-04-2017 14:14 | By Roadkill

These are prevalent across all in jail, many reoffend, be they of any race, creed or otherwise. The simple answer here is that the issue has nothing to do with race ... to state the obvious. It is all about the basic life, skills, lessons, morals and rules of life that are weak or non-existent. The more obvious these things are the more chance of crime and reoffending. There are many people of all types, colour etc who just will not lower themselves to crime as a means to an end. These people have a backbone, they know what is right and what Is wrong. To claim otherwise is to be in denial of the truth of it as to how it really is. These basics of life start at home, kids learn from the parents and copy.


Posted on 18-04-2017 14:12 | By Papamoaner

I don't know what happened to that previous response of mine. It seems to have disappeared. Maybe I forgot to press "post comment" It was essentially what Robin has just said ie; that this forum is about MAORI reoffending, so any kids or individuals mentioned, are presumed to be maori. I refer you to the original news report at the top of this forum. I also said it might be wise when posting, to qualify what OTHER ethnicities you are referring to. Further, you are a bit of an enigma since you have hinted that you work at the coalface of this portfolio, yet you seem to be negative towards targeted scholarships that work very successfully towards solving this serious problem our community faces. Doubtless you will next ask me for evidence - next post!

@ R. Bell

Posted on 18-04-2017 14:07 | By Roadkill



Posted on 18-04-2017 13:57 | By R. Bell

its eether or iither, don't worry we all get a little loose at times. Your right about the "tax payer" thing. And it applies to both rehab' and scholarships. If we apply the 85%- 15% rule as they always do, we see that Maori actually contribute greatly to all of the "tax payer" issues, including 15% of their settlements, add to that they only get about 1% of the unimproved value of any land compensated for. Add to that ****** more for another day. Robin Bell.

The mind boggles, roadkill.

Posted on 18-04-2017 12:38 | By R. Bell

I know papamoaner will no doubt reply to your duplicity, but really you should be more honest. This thread is about Maori re offending rates. Your comments consistently use the insulting term "part Maori". DO YOU USE THAT TERM, WHEN WORKING AT THE COAL FACE ? If so you do more harm than good. I suggest you retire immediately. Robin Bell.


Posted on 18-04-2017 12:14 | By Papamoaner

In my previous post just now, I accidentally said "scholarships" instead of "reoffending" Best to get in first and correct that while other vultures are still circling.

@ Papamoaner

Posted on 18-04-2017 11:08 | By Roadkill

Mate, I never mentioned "part Maori", Maori or any other race. My comments apply to all where there is a wayward kid/s. The colour of skin matters not when it comes to crime. I stand by my words. Being in the trade of dealing with these issues and involvement with the families (usually single parent, dysfunctional and often lower social economic status all contribute to the problems. If you are at the forefront of these problems and not some armchair moaners type does help to get the best understanding of the real causes.

Cost of targeted scholarships

Posted on 18-04-2017 10:03 | By Papamoaner

It's noticeable there are many genuine commentators on this forum. They argue about the value of targeted scholarships to the nation, the historical background, and are never pedantic about "their taxpayers money" being wasted. The opposing factions can only see a perceived prejudice against themselves, and frequently complain about taxpayers money being "wasted" with little or no concern for the long term good of our culture and society in general. I guess it makes for lively debate.

In the past

Posted on 17-04-2017 23:42 | By astex

When I came to NZ in the sixties it was a totally different place, in fact a well known English TV presenter cam here to show the great relationship between both cultures. Everyone had a job and Maori and European worked and played together. Racism, as far as I could see, was non existent. After a time, and under a Labour government several things happened. Large industries were sold off resulting in mass layoffs in the freezing works, railways and many other industries. This affected mainly Maori who up until then had been hard working citizens that certainly pulled their weight. The unemployment had a huge effect on smaller towns. When Maori were already suffering from this the same government legalized the Treaty. Working gives people pride and the answer lies with government supplying jobs for all NOT benefits. If Maori are more affected by this society must address i

Roadkill, you misunderstand

Posted on 17-04-2017 16:54 | By Peter Dey

Roadkill mentions the decision by police that all Maori traffic first offenders should be given discretion and not prosecuted. Roadkill sees this as favouritism toward Maori. In fact it is another classic case of removing discrimination. Before police were required to allow Maori first offenders discretion, Pakeha offenders were being let off but not Maori offenders. All that has happened now is that discrimination against Maori has been removed.

I'm not sure,

Posted on 17-04-2017 16:09 | By R. Bell

how long Sunlive will allow this to continue. In the 4 or 5 years Iv'e been involved, this is by far the most enlightening "debate". Welcome back Peter. I often wish there was a proper national debating platform, where all interested parties could air and justify their differing positions. Jimmy the Rustler is correct when he says this forum has little or no influence. Not sure really, but with the inevitable change in subject, based on rapidly changing news prompts, many have adopted the "hit and run" method, usually based on total misunderstanding of the subject. They too are in dire need of education, rather than relying on the alternative truth industry. and their own prejudice. Robin Bell.


Posted on 17-04-2017 12:07 | By Papamoaner

Interesting that you have observed some folk having two or more different pen names. Prose and style in writing, is like a fingerprint. I have observed it on this forum too, and highly suspicious of one character in particular, but It's not proven, so the lid stays on it. Enough rope and all that! I think it's fair enough to hide behind one pen name if there is a need (well I would say that wouldn't I). But why anyone would want separate disguises is beyond me. Like liars, the duplicates are sometimes easy to identify if they're not thick skinned, but you risk losing a debating opponent. Just accuse them directly, and they promptly evaporate from the forum forever. I've experienced that in a forum in the US that I am active on. Aren't people funny!

Captain Sensible, your equality denies Maori culture

Posted on 17-04-2017 11:24 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible does not make sense when he describes all race based situations as race based privilege. As a nation we began with the Treaty of Waitangi which is race based, and granted Maori quite clear rights which have not been cancelled. In 1975 we finally agreed to set up the Waitangi Tribunal, and try and prevent future Government discrimination against Maori. The Waitangi Tribunal is now saying that imprisonment of Maori is excessive and that it is discrimination against Maori for the Government not to take action. That is not asking for race based privilege. It is asking for race based action over discrimination.

The Waitangi Tribunal is not blaming the Government

Posted on 17-04-2017 10:55 | By Peter Dey

A number of writers here (Dino, dumbkof2, Captain Sensible, Hot Stuff, Laurie, stokey, penguin) seem to think that the Waitangi Tribunal is blaming the Government for the high Maori prison population. The Waitangi Tribunal is not saying that the Government is responsible for the problem. They are saying that it is absolutely clear that there is a problem, and that the Government is not taking any serious action over it. The Government has the resources and responsibility to look for a solution. By not taking any serious action it is in breach of its Treaty responsibility to treat Maori fairly.

Yes, Papamoaner,

Posted on 17-04-2017 10:54 | By R. Bell

The rapid urbanization of many Maori after the second world war, plus the social revolutions of the '60s had a massive effect on Maori culture up to that period. When I entered my predominately Maori family the Marae with all of its protocol and discipline still held sway with the majority, It seemed to me to be a place of sanctuary, in a too rapidly changing world. Pot became an available drug, easily grown easily traded. The gangs, both Maori AND Pakeha had a source of income that society deemed unacceptable, and it is, but yet again society failed to properly educate people, leaving sole responsibility to, often unprepared, poorly educated, underfunded parents. Faced with such overwhelming change, the whole system, from parents,police, the justice system and corrections have come up a dollar short and a day late. It can be fixed. Perhaps. Robin Bell.

The fascinating psychology of it all

Posted on 17-04-2017 10:18 | By Papamoaner

Hypothetically, when you're "different", other people including your mates, will make jokes about it. Overtly, you will laugh with them, and maybe even make the odd joke about yourself. But privately, you'll feel bad about it. Remember that 1970's song "I want to ride in a maori car"? (was it Howard Morrison?) or "there's no hori's in that scrum"? Not considered kosher these days, but some might still be wearing the scars with the mandatory smile. Shallow thinkers still living in those times will always find stuff like maori scholarships totally alien and will never budge from that stance. One or two of the more intelligent ones might reflect, but they are the exception. Fortunately they are a minority blissfully believing they are the majority, so these good educational and "turn-around" initiatives we see evolving today, will prevail.

Respect? roadkill,

Posted on 17-04-2017 09:23 | By R. Bell

is a two way street. Please refer me to any comment by yourself (in all your different disguises) or your mate cap'n second class ( thanks jimmy) where you show any respect for the majority of Maori who do sterling work in our JOINT community. I wait with awareness and patience. Robin Bell.

Those of us who are old enough will;--

Posted on 17-04-2017 09:09 | By Papamoaner

Remember that prior to 1960 there was no such thing as gangs or big maori prison populations. Was parenting any different then? The school yard probably had just as much influence on kids. One thing I do remember, is that maori folk seemed to make Billy T style jokes about maoris a lot in those days. Did this arise from embarrassment at being maori, from parents being sort of brainwashed by early pakeha? Who knows? It's a complex subject. It is apparent the advent of gangs, and their full establishment by the 1970's, was synchronous with the beginning of an increase in maori prison population and reoffending. Therein might lie the root cause of the whole issue. Temporary race-based scholarships is a solution, but extinguishing predatory gang influence is essential if it is to work.

Far to simplistic Roadkill,

Posted on 17-04-2017 08:48 | By R. Bell

yogi in drag I think. Papamoaner is absolutely correct, yet again. It is far too late to blame parents, "blame" is a cop out. If parenting is inadequate, if education is inadequate, if personal responsibility is inadequate it is societies responsibility to enact measures to start the long process of change, for every ones good. Knee jerk measures like 3 strikes and your out, simply add to the problem, they don't fix it. My awareness is the equal of most, it seems yours is not. Maori are a separate entity from non Maori ,FACT. Yes it is Race based, and always will be. The term race based is in that context a misnomer,used by extremists and POPULISTS like "winnie" who have no more workable ideas than you do. Robin Bell.


Posted on 17-04-2017 07:47 | By Papamoaner

Blaming parenting is sweeping it under the carpet. Bad parenting is an issue for both pakeha and maori. IMPLYING that bad parenting is an ethnic thing exclusive to maori, is a veiled form of racism in itself, and wildly innacurate. We have many young people now, and some not so young, of both ethnicities, that cannot read, write nor spell very well. It's easy to blame parents for that, and many do. Blame David Lange's "Tomorrows Schools" Some of us know the risk of using experimental prototypes on operational missions, and Tomorrow's Schools was a classic example of it. A failed experiment that has cost us dearly. Of those failed kids, the "put down made to feel second class" ones with no mentor, are those most likely to go down the wrong track. Blaming parenting is simplistic.

@ Robin Bell

Posted on 16-04-2017 20:09 | By Roadkill

What you seem completely unaware of are these facts:- the remedies are separatist and race based in nature. The core issues are at a social-level, so can only be addressed by significant desire to change at a personal level. That's something that all face, it is easy to take the path of crime and all that appears to glisten with just a little light, instant gratification and similar things serve as a short-term benefit only. What these youngins don't appear to know simply because the parents have failed to teach them, is that they must respect others, they must respect the others property and a good days work is a reward for the inner soul, that monetary reward then provides the means to live a respectable life. If basic standards, beliefs and values are not instilled in the young then when older the certainly wont be there = trouble.

Mater Bell

Posted on 16-04-2017 19:50 | By Roadkill

Perhaps the answer is start where the problem starts, at home and the home environment.

Halfway house?

Posted on 16-04-2017 16:39 | By Papamoaner

When maori activists got a bit silly a few years ago and wanted to claim ownership of the electromagnetic spectrum, some also advocated a separate justice system. Thankfully it has died away now, Imagine the captain's response to a maori jail with a sign that says "maori inmates only" But I can see some value in a mixed culture halfway release house run by maori elders with military background, These guys know how to do that job properly, better than pakeha.I reckon the concept of a separate justice system would have maori criminals shaking in their socks. Nonetheless, the concept is inappropriate to our situation, but a halfway house might work.


Posted on 16-04-2017 15:10 | By Papamoaner

Yes, and there are some quite puzzling analogies around. For example, Singapore cancelled two major prison re-builds due to a "shortage of inmates" Switzerland has no firearms problems like other countries do, yet they are (still are?, not sure) the only country with a legal requirement for every household to have at least one semi-automatic high power rifle (eg; Kalashnikov ) as part of their defence policy. Back to NZ - building more prisons is not the answer. There has to be another way. Rules are made to be broken for the common good, so if we need to break a few eg; race based scholarships until we get these kids educated, then that's not a bad thing unless you're a bigot with a narrow view on life.


Posted on 16-04-2017 13:47 | By R. Bell

Awful crimes aside, the 50% of prisoners who are in jail for lesser crime, often become victims of dominant, often gang related pressure. Protection is not guaranteed. Boredom, aptitude restrictions and plain old attitude all play their part in bad rehab' statistics. At Te Ihi Tu the focus was on holistic diet, strong personal discipline, and S.A.S type physical courses. The coaches were highly focused and dedicated to the rehab' of inmates. The model works, but was grossly underfunded. Just as bad education for some is the states responsibility, it is incumbent on the state to provide better rehabilitation. Releasing, often brutalized people back into a generally uncaring (too busy!) society is just crazy. Robin Bell.

@Peter Day

Posted on 16-04-2017 12:10 | By Papamoaner

Thank you for your kind words Peter. There are sound reasons why I can't use my name on forums, but I admire those who do. I got some of my relatively new awareness from advancing age, but also from my dear old friend the late Tama Poata, well-known in NZ film circles. Tama spent all his spare time teaching kids, mostly maori, but welcomed all comers, skills in sound, vision, and production. He got paid nothing, lived in a tin shed on a hill at Makara in his last days. A huge contributor to society.

@ R.Bell

Posted on 16-04-2017 11:57 | By Papamoaner

Not sure I can agree on the IQ thing Robin. I could ask her. I don't want to get into eugenics, we would be here forever. But our maori mates are better than us at humour and subtle pisstaking, which is actually intellectual in itself. Like the maori farmer in a bar with a Texan rancher. The texan asked the maori how big his farm is (as you would expect), to which the maori responded that it was about a hundred acres, mostly covered in gorse. So how big is your ranch bro? The Texan was quiet for a minute, then said "If I get up real early and drive all day, I can just make the other side before sundown" The maori was quiet for a while, then said "yeah, I've got a car like that back home too.

@ R.Bell

Posted on 16-04-2017 11:29 | By Papamoaner

Some maori offenders commit awful crimes, just like pakeha. It seems partly an act of hatred, resentment and perhaps revenge, possibly with its roots in generations of putdown and lack of success. I get some of my info from an elderly pakeha criminal lawyer who spends her spare time volunteering at prisons, trying to turn inmates around, not just maori, but the main focus is on them (the Captain and his mob would call that discrimination), with a modicum of success, but she says gangs are a big impediment. However, gangs are gradually becoming self-annulling as the older patched members with grandchildren, realise they don't want their offspring to follow the same path. Interesting how nature makes adjustments for us. If you base your research on a random data sample of 1, you can always get the statistical result you want. Sound familiar?


Posted on 16-04-2017 10:48 | By R. Bell

your comments make so much sense. Jimmy the rustler also. For some unknown reason those who regularly vent their frustration, rarely take the opportunity to rationalize it. Not so long ago I was "accused" of believing all Maori are good people. I believe most are, just as I believe most New Zealanders are. To constantly dwell on the negative( the ones who are not) requires the belief of self importance and superior intellect. The cap'n clearly believes that, hence the name. The one overriding thing I have learned is that a large proportion of incarcerated Maori, and probably Pakeha are extremely intelligent . They do not fit the profile some would advance. In my humble opinion, that should or could be the start point of any new initiatives to reduce re- offending rates. Robin Bell.


Posted on 16-04-2017 09:20 | By Papamoaner

Indeed! The land was originally made un-economic by the brutality of forest destruction where "pioneers" systematically felled all saplings and undergrowth, then left it to dry out for two years before setting fire to it so the big podocarps all got destroyed. Hence the term "the black stump" They were everywhere. Later, maori, smarter than pakeha farmers, knew that if they let the pakeha gorse grow, it would provide shade for regeneration, then the re-emerging rainforest would kill off the gorse, which is exactly what's happening today as we speak. But the dumb arse pakeha were frequently heard to say "those bloody maori losers are just letting the land get ruined by gorse. So, who were the losers in that argument ladies and gentlemen?

Equality? ?

Posted on 16-04-2017 09:09 | By Papamoaner

That word equality gets used a fair bit, mainly by racists in camouflage. I call it "equality with hysteresis". Unlike many other countries, racism is not a big problem in NZ, to our credit. But there are some who would have it otherwise. Fortunately, they are now a diminishing minority. Their racism is subtle and nearly always disguised as something else. They invariably accuse others of racism. Then there are the chamellions. You never know where you are with them. The smoko table at my work has 13 people around it. For years we have been saying "bloody maoris, what do they want this time?" Lately, that has diminished as awareness of the reality evolves. I was once guilty of it myself - we all were. The blinder I get, the more I can see.

Belated equality.

Posted on 16-04-2017 08:43 | By R. Bell

Captain Caustic and his support group claim he preaches equality. Really cap'n. Where was your passion for equality when Maori were being bullied into giving away their land on the pretext it was "uneconomic" Maori Affairs Amendment Act 1967 Known to Maori and fair minded people as the "land grab act". Can you imagine the uproar if such an act was forced on Pakeha. Where is your passion for equality being applied to the people of Taranaki whose land, having been locked up in COMPULSORY perpetual lease, are now being told to pay $23 million to buy back the leases. Can you PLEASE apply your EQUALITY to solve these problems, The world needs your wisdom. Robin Bell.

@ Captain Second Class

Posted on 16-04-2017 08:09 | By The Jimmie Rustler

Oh, and speaking of ill gotten gains, land confiscations ring a bell? I'm not name calling, you constantly define yourself as 'second class'then berate Maori for playing the victim card, while playing the victim card yourself.

@ Captain Second Class

Posted on 16-04-2017 07:47 | By The Jimmie Rustler

Ok, then tell me specifically how your children and grandchildren have been disadvantaged by these so called privileges, seeing as you yourself have never suffered any disadvantage yourself. Fact are facts, correct.

Major Think and his wooden spoon.

Posted on 16-04-2017 07:46 | By Papamoaner

This character seems to be one of those individuals like the Roofer, who just sits on the sideline and throws the odd stone at someone rather than at some point or other, getting his rocks off by prodding, but seldom contributing anything to the argument himself. As already suggested to you Major, How about giving us YOUR take on ways to reduce maori reoffending? We don't need voyeurs on here. Contributors to the argument are constructive to lively debate. Yours thus far are destructive. At least the Captain you hide behind has his own tangible views. Here's your big chance - let's hear yours. To answer your last question, I said it was "implied", and implied it was, by simple association. If you don't get that, I can't help you.

Capitan vindictive

Posted on 15-04-2017 19:53 | By Papamoaner

Oh dear, Now that nasty fellow has followed me to another forum and is insulting young maori achievers there. See LOCAL IWI AMONG SCHOLARSHIP WINNERS on Sunlive. There's no getting rid of him.

to the blind papamoaner

Posted on 15-04-2017 19:48 | By the roofer

Good on you Captain. Give heaps to these raceists. It's not rocket science that race based privileg to one is race based disadvantage to another. Papamoaner is just sore that you owned him with proof on the scholarship debate.


Posted on 15-04-2017 17:05 | By Major Think

Mr papamoaner, I never saw the capt say "where they belong" as you quote. To the observers here, it is painfully obvious that you are out to get him since he gazzumped you on the scholarship issue. At least be truthful. He has advocated equality for all, and never from what I have seen said he wants anymore or less than what Maori get.

@ papamoaner

Posted on 15-04-2017 16:22 | By Captain Sensible

I have preached equality all along. never wavered. Now you say I advocate keeping brown people down. an you quote me where I said that? No? Thought so. You are fighting to keep race based privileges for certain skin colours. BTW Mandella fought Government policy....the same as what I am doing. Me thinks you protesteth too much! Good bye.

@ Jimmie Rustler

Posted on 15-04-2017 16:16 | By Captain Sensible

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. All these special this and special that for maori only while there are even more underprivileged non-maori getting nothing, but denied anything because they were born non-maori. I want my grandchildren and children to get a fair go. Discrimination based on race, is just that no matter how hard you try to justify it. Try being on the wrong end and see how you like it. You won't! You can intimidate me and call me names and disrespect me all you like but you as a beneficiary of ill gotten gains, will never understand being a second class kiwi and the doors it does not open. Facts are facts and it is a fact that brown kiwis get hundreds of race based opportunities denied to the rest of us. You are not denying it, just justifying it!

@ Captain Second Class

Posted on 15-04-2017 15:59 | By The Jimmie Rustler

Yep, Im Maori tihei Mauri ora and all that. Yep, I was a beneficiary for six months in between tertiary study (which I didn't receive a scholarship for, I applied but missed out) and full time employment. So that's me. How about you Captain Second Class, exactly which privileges you have been denied? Your words drip with anger, obviosuly something has happened to make you this way, so tell me, how has the brown man kept YOU down brother?

@captain sensible

Posted on 15-04-2017 15:50 | By Papamoaner

What a bloody ridiculous analogy. The Africaan discrimination was a deliberate government policy to keep the underprivileged down "where they belong" The World-leading NZ maori scholarship policy is deliberately designed to prevent a bun-rush, so that the maori kids have at last, got a chance to get a leg-up, at very small cost to the nation, with such good potential return that it is indeed an investment we will all benefit from in the long term. I reckon your analogy has exposed your underbelly because it implies that you advocate keeping maori people down "where they belong" It's what I meant in an earlier post, by "disgusting"

@ the forum

Posted on 15-04-2017 15:38 | By Papamoaner

I'm baaaack! Hell, it's hard to break away when the stimulus is swelling up again. Guess I was always the kid who got left on the wharf in the dark because the bloody fish wouldn't stop biting. The number of times I have been bushed around Ruatoria in younger days, been found by maoris, taken in, dried out and fed, no questions asked,. Yes, pakehas do that too, but not all, and the atmosphere is never quite the same. They are a bit like the Americans. Who was first into Tacloban in their VTOL Ospreys laden with food and supplies within hours of the disaster? The Americans of course. What's one of the most common safe havens to open up to all comers in NZ disasters? The maraes of course, all welcome, no questions asked.

Nelson Mandela also refused to be treated as second class

Posted on 15-04-2017 15:28 | By Captain Sensible

Nelson Mandela fought racism for years. 85% of Kiwis should not have to put up with being second class....denied privilege after privilege by the ruling brown supremacists. I am not Nelson Mandela but I am suffering the same discrimination as he spent a lifetime fighting and I will never accept being denied these privileges because of my skin colour in my own country. Maybe Jimmy is in favour of them because he is a beneficiary of them. More shame on him.

In the

Posted on 15-04-2017 14:27 | By R. Bell

captain caustic truth and fantasy collide. His now predictable exaggerations come to the surface yet again. Maori only housing projects, built on Maori land previously deemed unsuitable for bank loans. Joint projects between Iwi and lenders. No business of anyone else. Maori only hospital wards, simply don't exist. Refer Sunlive Dec. 2008. Ward helps Maori health. Tauranga is the only hospital with such a ward, it is available to ALL ethnicities. Maori trust Tax free status. Rubbish. All charitable trusts of All ethnicites, religions and sports clubs pay tax on unused monies. Only money used for declared purpose is tax free and available to all. All ethnic groups are targeted by gov't sponsored anti smoking adds. Robin Bell.

@ Captain sensible

Posted on 15-04-2017 13:13 | By The Jimmie Rustler

Sure, any kid can set a table - but do they achieve qualifications in the process? Given the job market these days, if you have no experience or a piece of paper to say you've got the skills, then you're out of luck buddy. And youre quite right I'm just as deluded as you are. However, we differn in the fact I know my little scribblings on this site are of no consequence at all and will help to change absolutely nothing. But like you, I'm a little keyboard warrior hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. My only purpose is to be a thorn in the sides of people like you who scream until they are blue in the face and yet say nothing at all. 'Spare a thought for those that are not entitled or privileged enough purely because of our skin colour'. Works both ways buddy, but youre too stubborn in your hatred for anything brown to see it.

Papamoaner, an immense contribution

Posted on 15-04-2017 12:29 | By Peter Dey

The comments by Papamoaner here have been immensely valuable. Regular contributors here often show that they are not well informed but they do not want to accept correction when it comes. However those that have an open non-racist point of view are enormously helped by the objective view that Papamoaner has provided. As a society we are evolving. Every time that anti-Maori propaganda is shown to be misinformed we all move forward.

@ Jimmie Rustler

Posted on 15-04-2017 12:07 | By Captain Sensible

If you seriously think teaching a 16 year old to set a table on a marae ( a task most kids can do at home before they reach ten years old) will benefit and help any child into the hospitality industry, you are deluded. It does not help anyone except the school get a good pass rate which equates to more funding. This is a form of child abuse that in most cases is setting the student up for a life of unemployment. Yeah, I know you want to protect your race based privileges, but spare a thought for those that are not entitled or privileged enough purely because of our skin colour. You will never know how that feels. I may be a thorn in the side of the brown supremacists, but I don't care.

@ Captain sensible

Posted on 15-04-2017 11:46 | By Papamoaner

The answer to your 3 questions is yes, yes, and yes. Jimmy Rustler elaborates it a bit better than me.You appear to make oblique ridicule at those subjects. They are lost kids and need to start at the bottom. They don't choose the subject material. it was chosen by socially aware experienced people.How do you think those kids would feel if they see your cruel comments? They are trying to make a start. have you had a heart transplant? Is it bionic? Bye.

@ Captain sensible

Posted on 15-04-2017 11:36 | By Papamoaner

Re your last post, I don't recall anybody on this forum ever claiming that. So nobody has disagreed with you on that point but you continue to parrot it endlessly. You seen to always let your momentum carry you on an on after specific matters have been put to bed. You seem to prefer to play the man rather than the ball in the hope you can goad your opponents into doing the same, albeit with some success since that's an area you are evidently clever in. Like Robin, I am out of here now (or at least that's the immediate intention). Done my dash, and too many other forums on my plate. Good luck - it's been a lively debate, but in it's death throws now.

@Captain Sensible

Posted on 15-04-2017 11:33 | By The Jimmie Rustler

In regards to your last comment - did you know that pakeha can also gain those exact same credits if they choose to study Maori school? Last I saw, all Maori subjects offered at school weren't limited to people identifying themselves as Maori. And yes, I do believe these credits can assist young Maori into work, hospitality springs to mind. Do you do anything other than comment on this website? Or is this place your soapbox?

@ papamoaner

Posted on 15-04-2017 11:22 | By Captain Sensible

On the surface, those NCEA figures are great...but did you know that maori can get 41 of the 60 credits required for Year 12 NCEA ( 20 credits can be carried forward from the previous year) by doing tasks such as: quote "prepare, maintain and clear a buffet in a marae", "set tables, serve kai, and clear tables in a marae", "prepare kai and equipment to fry in a marae", "prepare kai and equipment to cook with water in a marae", "prepare kai and equipment to cook on a stove in a marae" etc etc ( codes 21248, 21251, 27512, 27513, 27514, NCEA credits). Do you seriously think these credits are really assisting young maori into work? Great for fraudulent school pass rates but a form of child abuse for the real world. Don't believe me? Ask an employer!

Ruducing reoffending

Posted on 15-04-2017 10:45 | By Papamoaner

I reckon Hekia Parata has done well by introducing "communities of learning" where needs are identified and targeted at childhood, then tracked right through to tertiary education. Already NCEA L2 maori students have jumped from 51 to 74%. Good stuff that will benefit the whole community. This taxpayer has no problem with temporary race based scholarships if it helps young maori gain self esteem and education - especially the lost ones who would otherwise go to jail and we pay $75k pa to keep them there. When in the lifeboat, lets pull the ones without life jackets out of the water first. Never mind about arguing over who pays for the rescue, we are a community, and something has been wrong for a long long time. Light's at the end of the tunnel and we should ignore that negative minority

merit , not race

Posted on 15-04-2017 09:30 | By Captain Sensible

I want papamoaner to name one government funded (ie taxpayer ) scholarship that specifies maori are not eligible to apply. I want him to name just one. He won't because they do not exist. And if there was a scholarship that specified maori could not apply ...caucasian only ( but there is no such thing in NZ) then I would hope it was reported to the HRC. When I googled 'race based scholarships' it says whites receive most scholarships .....based on MERIT, not race. Many maori have done well in NZ, so handing out scholarships based on race is separatist and divisive and obscene.

Whew !

Posted on 14-04-2017 18:05 | By Papamoaner

It's hard work, but commentators on this forum might do well to google 'race based scholarships' if you have a couple of hours to spare. It's voluminous! Most scholarships seem to be 'whites only' and don't last much longer than the founder's study duration. Those ones are mostly in the US, but there are local ones too, one example being the "international scholarships for Indian students."It seems most debaters on this forum don't disagree with the concept that education is a strong deterrent to maori offending, as opposed to blaming the parents, which achieves nothing as does bleating ad nauseum about unfairness . We want the quickest fix that will increase self actualisation and pride, and stimulate a reduction in maori offending. Once we get that slope moving, we can start on Pakeha offending. Building more prisons doesn't work.

The term, Targeted

Posted on 14-04-2017 17:44 | By R. Bell

does not apply to Maori only cpl,senseless. It applies to any student deemed suitable to whoever donates the money. Read the comments, control your urge to embarrass people you disagree with. When you re-read my comment you will see that I said minorities get swamped by numbers. Maori were in that position. Society in general, ( obviously not you and friends) seek to redress the imbalance. Call it racist if you like, but I repeat no non Maori suffers. In fact they gain from a more balanced society. Robin Bell.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 14-04-2017 17:41 | By Captain Sensible

I have given these examples numerous times and you are trying to be mischievous by using your age old MO...deny, deny, deny... However when maori get on councils bypassing the election process because they are maori, maori-only housing projects, maori only scholarships, maori only hospital wards, maori trust tax free status, the Maori Supremacist Party, special anti-smoking initiatives for guessed it..maori only, maori only spaces on university courses despite unsuccessful non-maori candidates having better qualification standards, maori achiever awards in most schools ( no other awards for any specified race allowed), maori only rugby teams and sports teams etc etc. Now this is where you can't deny these race based you incredibly try to justify them! Case closed. game, set and match!

Furthermore morepork.

Posted on 14-04-2017 17:17 | By R. Bell

The Waitangi Tribunal, notice no "F" has no power to " make demands" recommendations only. The minister of corrections and the manager have both endorsed the recommendations. Your evaluation that this finding is " stupid, non productive nonsense simply shows yet again how little you actually know. I, on the other hand have hands on knowledge of the grossly underfunded Maori Focus Unit at Whanganui and the now defunct ( through under funding ) Te Ihi Tu rehabilitation facility in New Plymouth. Both successful yet deemed unnecessary by short sited admin'. I have personally mentored three ex prisoners,( as a volunteer) who went on to become fully employed, Tom Hemopo is absolutely correct, and so are the Tribunal and so are the above mentioned officials. You, and the rest of your negative thinking friends are not. Robin Bell.

Before you go morepork,

Posted on 14-04-2017 16:36 | By R. Bell

you will never find a more fair minded person than me. Ask anyone who knows me, It's why I put my name on my comments twice. Unlike you and others here I have the courage of my convictions. Where in hell did you get the figure of 50 billion from. Just another false claim. Do your homework before making stupid statements or you'll end up like cop'n whats his name, who now claims his grand mother had land taken, in order to counter my example of current injustice. Totally ignoring examples given of just a couple of recent attempted theft. Raglan, taken without compensation (which granny would have got) unused for anything. Instead of returning it to its rightful owners leased out to the local golf club. Bastion point similar.Those who fought successfully to get it back, vilified by you know who. Robin Bell.


Posted on 14-04-2017 16:21 | By Papamoaner

Thanks Robin. Way off topic, but concrete gobbles up CO2 like there's no tomorrow. I would like to see coal release its energy underground before mining, then the resultant charcoal used to deal with CO2. Maybe I could skid back on topic by suggesting maori look after the mining industry. If Ngai Tahu is anything to go by, they would do it well. It's noticeable that some maori entities were originally run by greedy people who ripped their own people off. Isn't it funny that maori have greedy people too, just like Pakeha. Banjo Patterson knew all about it when he wrote "The Maori's wool" all those decades ago. Did we teach them to be sleight of hand? Or were they always like that? Many things to debate - not enough forums.

@Robin Bell

Posted on 14-04-2017 16:07 | By Papamoaner

Sorry if this comes twice - pc reboot post crash. I think Capn Sens confused the issue with the old public works act for land requisition BUT I MIGHT STAND CORRECTED. To Major Think. I couldn't resist winding the tosser up again after he accepted an apology, then nullified it by proceeding to lecture me on it at length. That would be obvious to many of the more astute observers on the forum. If any debate content embarrasses you, you could try pulling your head in, then come back on topic with your solutions to maori offending statistics.

@ Number Eight

Posted on 14-04-2017 16:00 | By Captain Sensible

The scholarship mentioned earlier, the Port of Tauranga has several. There are probably hundreds more. I have seen so many that I have lost count, but I do not write them down. Are you denying they exist? One is one too many. I am against my treatment as a second class kiwi. I am not against maori, I am against race based privileges and just want the same race based privileges and race based rights for all kiwis, that they get. I am really surprised this needs to be spelled out for you. BTW, are you someone else using a different name?

@Robin Bell

Posted on 14-04-2017 15:50 | By Papamoaner

In Capt sensible's last response to you, I suggest he has confused the issue with the public works act on land requisition. To Major think. I couldn't resist winding CS up again after he accepted a good grace apology then proceeded to lecture me on it at length. The tosser nullified it. His doing not mine, but we have to take tempting bait eh. All good fun. If you feel embarrassed about any debate content I suggest you lower your head down into your shirt for a while, then come back on topic with your contribution of ideas to reduce maori offending

Captain Sensible, you have not given many examples

Posted on 14-04-2017 12:15 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible, you have been asked many times to restate your examples of Maori race based privilege, but have failed to do so. Do it now or admit that your claim has no substance.

@Robin Bell (last from me on this)

Posted on 14-04-2017 11:22 | By morepork

I thought you were genuinely concerned and fair minded. I see now that you are not. I am not seeking to "wipe the slate clean" without fair reparation, but, once that has been made (and $50 billion from a country with a population of 4 million, only 15% of whom are Maori) would indicate that it has been, THEN the slate needs to be clean and we all need to move forward together with goodwill. The actions and demands of the WTF in this instance are completely non-productive and nonsensical. They are doing far more harm than good to the cause of just reparation and they are simply antagonizing the goodwill of many people who sympathize with justice for Maori. You say my vision "won't happen". I say it IS happening and I look to a time when ALL NZers will live and work together with diversity, not division.

Name them

Posted on 14-04-2017 09:48 | By Number eight

Come on captain sensible,name all the hundreds if not thousands of scholarships that only Maori are entitled to.Come on captain name and shame them all.AGAIN ANYTHING MAORI AND THIS SAME CLOWN COMES OUT TO PLAY

@ R. Bell

Posted on 14-04-2017 09:07 | By Captain Sensible

Which church and which industry and which companys have race based scholarships that specify maori are not eligible? You just made a statement, so name them.

A betting man, wouldn't take the bet

Posted on 13-04-2017 17:09 | By R. Bell

the odds against getting a non-targeted scholarship was one contributing factor in low Maori achievement. Coupled with inadequate early education, that ill prepared Maori ( in general) for success in Euro centred education. Those days are rapidly disappearing, thanks to our enlightened philosophy. Maori are now contributing billions to the economy, and are truly reaching full potential. What we now require is an enlightened approach to all prison rehab' especially ( but not exclusively) for Maori. Robin Bell.

I recently learned something from Papamoaner,

Posted on 13-04-2017 16:45 | By R. Bell

Concrete rubble is a valuable tool for the absorption of pollutants. I suggest cap'n senseless and his buddy the roadkill consider donating the contents of their cranium to the cause. There may be good money in it. Robin Bell.

Robin is drowning

Posted on 13-04-2017 16:24 | By NZer

Keep digging mate... The hole is getting deeper... Clearly the majority of people on here dont agree with you... Gives a good picture of what the silent majority of NZ think. No One believes your rubbish Robin. Go peddle it somewhere else.....

Let it go Papamoaner !

Posted on 13-04-2017 16:20 | By Major Think

Geeeze Papamoaner, let it go! Your comments since being proved wrong are extremely ugly. Let it go! Move on. It's embarrassing.

Robin, I think.....

Posted on 13-04-2017 15:33 | By groutby

....Captain Sensible asked about Scholarships from Industry/church etc etc, I am keen to know the answer which you have not given, and quick "off topic" answer is not what was asked for...

Still waiting

Posted on 13-04-2017 15:19 | By Captain Sensible

Compulsory leases of maori land...nope! The Government took my Grandmothers land as well for a motorway. Still waiting Robin! Try something from the 20 or 21st century! You made a statement "Maori are blissfully unaware of other targeted scholarships, many church groups and industrial companies have them " name one!

call it what you like, but it is still the 'r' word

Posted on 13-04-2017 13:31 | By Captain Sensible

A race based anything is discriminatory. A "leg up" for one race only is a racist slap in the face to another. A scholarship that states only people with maori descent can apply, may have been formed with good intentions (???) but it is discriminatory and racist to the students who are not allowed to apply because of their skin colour/bloodlines. Maori do not have a monopoly on poverty, so all those arguements about the downtrodden minority being all maori is not true. It is not a crime to not have maori blood but the way NZ is day it may well be.

Just one,

Posted on 13-04-2017 12:51 | By R. Bell

Compulsory leases on Maori land, Taranaki. Still in force, that's what abuse of peoples rights does. In perpetuity means forever. The rest have been or are being addressed by the Waitangi Tribunal, thank god for them. Robin Bell.

The general overview

Posted on 13-04-2017 12:28 | By Papamoaner

I see there are many "scholarships in drag" Not really scholarships at all. More in the nature of small grants and educational assistance within small outfits, schools clubs etc to help give maori a leg-up. All good, helpful, well intended and fair enough. To say there are thousands of "scholarships" as claimed on here, is an exaggeration. In the general scheme of things, we, the community, are trying to give opportunities to our indigenous minority who have been "put down" for generations in subtle and not so subtle ways, and still so, by another minority as evidenced on this forum. Most Kiwis at large, that includes all ethnicities, are comfortable with it. Some attitudes are frankly disgusting, especially when the more ill considered factions start mentioning (advocating?) such extremes as civil war.

@ R. Bell

Posted on 13-04-2017 12:25 | By Captain Sensible

Robin, name one scholarship where it says on the application form that maori can not apply. Just one from any company, or any church or any industry in NZ. You have just said they name one!!! Being from a majority or have better qualifications is NOT racially discriminatory. I await you to name these NZ organisations you speak of that do not allow maori applicants. I'm betting you can't!!!!

The Road To Hell,

Posted on 13-04-2017 12:03 | By R. Bell

was avoided with the formation of The Waitangi Tribunal. Only a few historically deprived mainly grey haired types object to the results to date.Any non Maori complaining about scholarships for Maori are blissfully unaware of other targeted scholarships, many church groups and industrial companies have them, with the statistical majority swamping the minority applicants. No Pakeha in N.Z. is deprived, how could they be? we run the show. Race based decisions are the only way to heal the pain of past mistakes caused by Race Based policy. Robin Bell.

@ papamoaner

Posted on 13-04-2017 11:20 | By Captain Sensible

I accepted your apology so no need to harp on about any bit of nit picking you can find. Remember, I had no beef with you until you came out swinging at me. So I accepted your apology, so now please stop demonstrating those Alpha-Male characteristics and move on. You were wrong. We all make mistakes. I just hope you do your homework before attacking someone again. It will save you having to apologise again. Ultimately, one race based scholarship is offensive so hundreds if not thousands are obscene to most kiwis.

Captn Sense

Posted on 13-04-2017 11:19 | By Roadkill

The reason for revert to the 1800's is desperation, the Acts noted have all ceased 100+ years ago. What master Bell cant do is find a current law the provides a favour to non part Maori, just one will do. It is really hard to get past things like Maori affairs department, Moari TV, Maori seats as MPs that remain to this dey from the 1860's when they were but a temporary measure that was meant to end then.

@ R. Bell

Posted on 13-04-2017 10:02 | By Captain Sensible

Come on Robin, have to revert to the 1800's!!! How about something relevant to this century or last!!! If you want to go back to the 1800's then you leave yourself wide open to what maori did to other tribes....canibalism, slavery, murder etc. And recently the Waitangi tribunal told the crown that the crown were responsible for some barbaric maori slaughtering of other tribes prior to the Treaty signing! You are clutching at straws and grabbed fresh air!

@Captain Sensible

Posted on 13-04-2017 09:58 | By Papamoaner

Maybe we need to check your numbers. They sound a bit far fetched on the face of it and we have seen you exaggerate before. I wouldn't ever ask anyone for an apology. To me it's undignified, but I gave it to you on a plate, even though I had clearly qualified myself earler by saying in my post on scholarships that "I might stand corrected" It was lost on you and you demanded an apology anyway. Actually it didn't feel bad at all - a bit like feeding a brat. Meanwhile, let's check those figures and debate them later.


Posted on 13-04-2017 09:36 | By Major Think

A non-Maori complaining about being racially discriminated against is not hatred. Why say something like that about what is just the truth. I hate being treated as a second class Kiwi, so why am I a racist for saying so. The Captain has enlightened you and I must say your apology was of a poor standard. 80% of Kiwis just accept their place as non-starters in every race based scheme, so good on some of them for demanding equality. NZ can not continue down this path before a civil war errupts.

Even more response,

Posted on 13-04-2017 09:21 | By R. Bell

when will it end ? I am asked to name one race based law that benefits non-Maori. The very first race based law enacted in N.Z was pre -emption. 1840 from then it rapidly escalated through The Native Lands Acts 1862 -65 and onward giving the Crown the power to simply take Maori land, The 5% rule with no compensation. Race based statutes relating to governance,land, justice etc and more all based on European values, to the exclusion of Maori. Into the 20th century. Perpetual leases forced on Maori, That are still in place and a total nightmare for all concerned. Raglan, Bastion Point. It is impossible to exclude race and ethnicity from social and economic policy. Morepork wants to now dismiss all of the above, wipe the slate clean so that Maori become two times losers, not gonna happen Robin Bell.

@ papamoaner

Posted on 13-04-2017 09:03 | By Captain Sensible

What can I say...if you did your homework, this spat would never have eventuated. He who casts the first stone and all that eh. However I accept your apology. The word 'naive' was to show how you were unaware of hundreds if not thousands of race based scholarships in NZ and guess what race is excluded in every one! Now you know eh?!

your frustration?

Posted on 12-04-2017 21:16 | By Roadkill

There is the problem, the Crown was never a party to the Treaty, so what possible breaches could have occurred?

Papamoaner and Goebels?

Posted on 12-04-2017 21:07 | By Roadkill

Suggestion, lets not let idealism get in the way of reality. The reality is that a socialist mentality can not sustain itself and history reveals that time and time again. Actual truth and reality is the only way, that means the WTF Tribunal has again degraded itself to beyond the bottom of the barrel, a place where even the rotten apples can not sink to. Such racial, silly and indeed unacceptable decisions can not continue without consequence, the question is what reaction will the public have to this nonsense ... in an election year. There is reason for remedy, the RMA changes, the non-democratic Council proposals and more.

@tga Boy

Posted on 12-04-2017 18:52 | By Papamoaner

I'm not sure what the relevance of having a minority view on a forum is, as you have accused R.Bell whose arguments have more depth than yours. Especially a forum populated with hatred, envy, prejudice, and devoid of empathy. Not uncommon in Tauranga it seems. An answer to your question might be that Oscar Wilde was in your minority category as were others down history, mostly of remarkable intellect. I admit to being surprised at the number of exclusions pakeha are evidently subject to, and if it gives the Captain gloating pleasure, then I have no regrets. I have no need of it myself, nor other "minority viewers" on here, I suspect. Gloating is a pedantic urge that is no compliment to credibility. If the population ratios were reversed, I wonder how the individuals on this forum would react?

@Robin Bell in response

Posted on 12-04-2017 18:38 | By morepork

You scathingly dismiss my approach as "one size fits all". Is that what you think of "equality"? You seem to be requiring "special treatment" for certain groups. I see that as a road to Hell. As long as some groups of the community are singled out for "special treatment" there will be a breeding ground for Racism and resentment. "Equality" means that everyone has the SAME rights, gets the same chance, has the same basic value to the society, is afforded the same respect and courtesy, and everyone is subject to the same Laws and restrictions. It also brings the SAME level of responsibility to others. Fairness and Justice for ALL. People who need help will get it, but NOT because of their skin colour, real or imagined wrongs in the past (that no-one alive today participated in), or because of any other "special privilege".

@captain Sensible

Posted on 12-04-2017 18:07 | By Papamoaner

You are quite correct and I don't hesitate to apologise for a mistake foolishly made on hasty assumption. Ok, that's done, but I did say in my post that "I might stand corrected" (which already implied I hadn't checked) so your use of the word naive has got me mystified. Maybe you don't know the meaning of that word. I'm not sure why you needed to say the same thing in two posts. Gloating in advance is not a good look in any argument mate, and I have seen you get very personal towards people quite a few times on here, but never seen you apologise for mistakes, so maybe I can be your mentor this time eh?

@ Captain Sensible

Posted on 12-04-2017 17:56 | By Tgaboy

Yup. You are right. I went to TBC and they had Maori only scholarships. I often wondered what the response would have been if a scholarship criteria had been 'for Caucasian students only'. It would never be allowed, would it!

Murray guy,your frustration

Posted on 12-04-2017 17:23 | By R. Bell

is noted. I presumed you were up to speed on this subject. The answer your looking for is a, NO. When the Tribunal was formed the agreement was for only Crown transgressions to be investigated. It was the Crown who failed in its contract. Private transaction deemed too difficult and costly to resolve. b. Your perception that the process has been hi-jacked is wrong. The terms of reference are wide and encompass all matters pertaining to the failure of the Crown. It's called common justice. Tom Hemopo has exercised his inalienable right to hold the Crown responsible for its lack of adequate rehabilitation opportunity for Maori prisoners. Robin Bell.


Posted on 12-04-2017 17:19 | By NZer

Is always in the minority... Doesnt that tell you something.....

spelling from copy & paste

Posted on 12-04-2017 17:18 | By Captain Sensible

In the copy and paste from the application form, the word "Maori" came out as "Mori" because the line above the 'a' was not recognised in Sunlive's software for accepting comments. Not really important as I proved my point anyway. And to stop unwanted non-maori applying, there are sections where one must prove their maori descent. Yes folks, right here in good old NZ we have this division and separatism.

@ papamoaner

Posted on 12-04-2017 16:52 | By Captain Sensible

There are hundreds of scholarships in NZ that are for maori only. Even the Port of Tauranga has a few that 85% of the population need not waste their time applying for unless they are of maori descent. I really am surprised that you, the homework king, did not know that!

@ papamoaner

Posted on 12-04-2017 16:38 | By Captain Sensible

You are quite the naive one aren't you. Just go to the website to get the application form and you will see this; "The purpose of the Ngrimu VC & 28th (Mori) Battalion Memorial ScholarshipFund is to provide financial assistance to students of Mori descent who attend arecognised tertiary institution. " Do you see the part where it states the student must be of maori descent? I await my apology from you! What was that about doing one's homework??!

@ Captain Sensible

Posted on 12-04-2017 15:32 | By Roadkill

R Bell can not provide that answer, it is beyond comprehension that such a thing would be allowed to happen. However there will be a response, the usual response when no explanation can be provided, you will be labeled a racist, wait for it .. its coming your way soon as.

@ipm67 and TgaBoy

Posted on 12-04-2017 14:39 | By Papamoaner

Joseph Goebels would have been proud of you both.

@ Captain sensible

Posted on 12-04-2017 14:02 | By Papamoaner

Are you sure about that? My comments were within the concept that any student can enter. Can you please identify the instances you refer to where non-maori were refused entry to the scholarship application? I think they call it "money where your mouth is" I might stand corrected, but the only scholarships I am aware of that are exclusive to maori, are at the Otago medical school, and they are more in the nature of Bursary level waivers to give a few maori a chance. Has anyone attempted to apply? They might be surprised, then put prejudice aside. Go check and get back to us with some data. Sir Robert Muldoon famously called it "doing your homework"


Posted on 12-04-2017 12:43 | By surfsup

Excellent comments from papamoaner. The article should clearly show that Maori can and do succeed within the education framework despite the likes of R Bell suggesting otherwise.There is no excuse for criminal activity, a person has choices , choose the wrong one and suffer the consequences. How many of the Maori in prison are on their 3rd or more offence,. Look at the events in Wellington, major drug ring smashed, $400.000 in cash over $1.5 million in assets seized, and the people behind it ,Mongrel mob no more needs to be said.

@ Tgaboy

Posted on 12-04-2017 12:25 | By Captain Sensible

I totally agree with you. Any person from any race that offends and does not want help and rejects decency, that is the answer. Why should longsuffering taxpayers pay $100K per year to keep them locked up when decent hard working kiwis don't know where their next weal is coming from.

@ papamoaner

Posted on 12-04-2017 12:22 | By Captain Sensible

Re the maori scholarship you praise; what about the youth that were denied entry or the right to apply because they have no maori blood. They were discriminated against because of their skin colour....and you are OK with that?! Poverty is not monopolised by maori. Sepratism and apartheid and $40 billion so far, is just NOT working. How about we try something foreign and alien to NZ...equality!

@ R. Bell

Posted on 12-04-2017 12:18 | By Captain Sensible

Please name one maori right that is abused. Over the years I have given you many examples of maori race based privilege, and I am still waiting for you to give one privilege denied to maori but given to non-maori on the grounds of race. Many years I have waited, so i ask again, name one.


Posted on 12-04-2017 10:29 | By Roadkill

Good responses to Bell and others, They are not on this planet when it comes to logical and sensible responses of any form.


Posted on 12-04-2017 10:10 | By R. Bell

You say, " If its a Maori problem, let Maori fix it " sounds great eh! The problem is Maori have virtually no say in policy making, in funding for re- education or in any necessary vehicles for change. Ray Smith N.Z manager of corrections is on record today totally agreeing with the Tribunal report. In spite of your cynicism change will come. You should be proud of your " kiwi pride" but your upbringing was vastly different to that of many Maori, who were denied the character building values you enjoyed. Robin Bell.

R Bell, a straight answer please

Posted on 12-04-2017 10:06 | By Murray.Guy

R Bell says, It is not its function to investigate non Maori issues. R Bell, please stop being so bloody one eyed and divisive. I do no ask the WT to investigate non-maori issues. "Having investigated issues impacting Maori, is it within the power of the WT to apportion in part or full, any blame to ANY persons or group, other than the Crown. If so, has this EVER been the case?" I also asked about the terms of reference, with a perception they have been somewhat high jacked, of the Waitangi Tribunal and when on inception it's work was to be considered done and dusted, if ever. As an aside, I reject as appropriate or helpful the continual racist 'Maori Focus' putdown when non-maori with similar influencing and contributing factors may equally benefit from a much needed prioritisation of effort and resources.


Posted on 12-04-2017 09:30 | By Papamoaner

Please all read today's news article on Sunlive entitled "local Iwi among scholarship winners"Good on them. Give credit where it's due. That credit actually encourages the disillusioned people who went down the wrong track, but sadly, it's a long time coming.

Cause and effect

Posted on 12-04-2017 09:18 | By Papamoaner

Too many commentators are dwelling on the cause and not addressing the fix. Some actually don't want to fix it. They just wish maori would go away. Their view on life is narrow and bigotted. True, we need to know something about the cause in order to apply the fix, but what we really want is a bright idea that works, from someone who is not judgemental or prejudiced. Some of the commentators on here are just subjective white noise (no pun intended)

If the cap fits

Posted on 12-04-2017 09:10 | By penguin

You know, if I commit a crime as a proud Kiwi, I will be punished by the justice system. I cannot then go around bleating that the government or society at large let me down or that so-called non-compliance with the treaty caused the situation. I would have made a choice to commit the crime or not. As a retired police officer once said, even the most hardened criminal knows right from wrong and makes their decisions based on that knowledge. If its a maori issue then let maori fix it. But dont put the onus on the rest of the law-abiding citizens of our country!

Listen to MichaelAngelo,

Posted on 12-04-2017 08:28 | By R. Bell

although somewhat idealistic he is correct about Scandinavia. Crime is viewed as a failure by all. Murray Guy asks naive leading questions. The answers obvious. As long as Maori rights are abused, the Tribunal is critical. It is not its function to investigate non Maori issues. Morepork attempts to promote his "one size fits all" solutions. Until Pakeha come to terms with equality with all its ramifications for Maori rights in education, social development, cultural expression and shared political representation N.Z. will continue to to squander its most valuable asset, PEOPLE. The rest of the comments below, the usual hot air from a disconnected, bogged down minority. Robin Bell.

@By Murray.Guy

Posted on 11-04-2017 22:10 | By The Caveman

Hell, you took the words off my keyboard/screen. !!!! I don't need to ask the real questions now ! !

Bad Kid Bad Parent!

Posted on 11-04-2017 21:25 | By stokey

What a lot of cobblers this Waitangi crowd churn out. In most cases there is no such thing as a bad child just a bad parent!. If maoris are over represented in prison it is because they are committing the crimes, not because the Crown wants them there. I have many, lovely Maori friends, who come from loving homes where they were brought up properly. Children copy their parents mores and attitudes, whether it be good or bad. The solution is in their hands. Stop looking for scapegoats and accept responsibility for your own failings!

Leave the past and move forward

Posted on 11-04-2017 20:21 | By waiknot

I think it's fair to Maori have been marginalised over the last many years. To say this comes under the treaty! I'm not qualified to comment. What is clear is that Maori are over represented in NZ prisons, and anything that can turn that around has to be a win for all NZers. And the way forward will require Maori to want to move forward and stop looking backwards with all NZers onboard to achieve this.


Posted on 11-04-2017 20:11 | By Papamoaner

You hit the nail on the head. I can even see some vague similarities to the situation that crippled Ireland for decades. Traditionally unnacceptable behaviours become the norm and once it starts, it's very difficult to stop. I also think some of the views expressed by R Bell ought to be listened to and analysed, rather than just dogmatically rejected. The general equation is full of very complicated variables that are beyond some, so they just lash out at opposing views. This is an issue that is not going to go away in 5 minutes or 5 years. There are people trying to resolve it. They have a hard row to hoe. Moderation and balance helps.


Posted on 11-04-2017 19:44 | By MichaelAngelo

I was brought up in Far North and considered myself to be Maori. My parents were teachers and were elders on the Marae because education was so important. People were often poor but had pride and culture, as far as I was aware there was no crime or prejudice. I never heard of anyone being in prison, or of gangs. I was surprised I am Pakeha of English, Scottish, Norwegian, Italian descent, societies known for their brutality and tribalism, and remnants of this ignorance persist to this day as well as remarkable culture and advances. I have watched NZ degenerate over that 60 years with a growing gap between rich and poor, and the introduction of subcultures from marginalised groups in places such as the USA which has the Western worlds highest imprisonment rate (and level of crime), NZ has the second highest rate (why?)

Back to the future time?

Posted on 11-04-2017 19:13 | By astex

Once upon a time, not long ago, there was peace in the land. Crime was low, people could leave their houses and cars unlocked, leave valuables safely in plain sight and children were mainly well behaved. Then some experts" appeared and stated that society was wrong. Discipline at schools was inhumane and parents that smacked their children were bad people. Governments acted, against the wishes of sensible people and banned such behaviour in the land. Crime, as predicted, increased and children rebelled against their parents and society. Many excuses were made by the experts to try and justify their correctness but the problems are still increasing. When will the experts" finally admit that this social experiment is a total failure?

You're flogging a dead horse

Posted on 11-04-2017 19:10 | By Tgaboy

As someone who worked in the justice system, I have formed the belief that you cannot help the helpless. Programmes, education, counselling, none of this works with any of the criminal demographic, regardless of race. For everyone's sake, the best intervention we could offer these types is a bullet.

In answer Mr Bell...........

Posted on 11-04-2017 19:01 | By groutby

Robin, just listen to the concern and perhaps ongoing anger in some of the just cannot be serious when you blame this on the issues you raised, how long in "your world" does "marginalisation" last?..or "inadequate education"? pick on the latest topic of "Maori children in state care" is ..well if the parents gave a rats proverbial about them they wouldn't have been there in the first place! As for history, I agree very little is revealed nowadays since history has been taken over by lop sided views by the liberal feminist view (in education) and the ongoing "Maori-isation" of all things historical in this country, but the truth would not necessarily help your cause. As for indoctrination, take the blinkers off Robin please...just a little bit ...


Posted on 11-04-2017 18:52 | By morepork

It IS a "vicious circle (catch 22), but I hope you are wrong when you say it CANNOT be broken... If there is to be any hope for the future of NZ it HAS to be broken. There is no future for ANY of us without social justice for ALL. I really hope that the message is getting through about the things you mentioned. Maori have a responsibility to the whanau, the hapu, and the iwi. But there is also a (possibly even greater) responsibility to the SELF and to the nation. (The concept of mana hints at it...) Each of us is responsible for the condition we are in.

@Robin Bell

Posted on 11-04-2017 18:42 | By morepork

The sad thing here, Robin, is that a Tribunal behaving like this (stupidly) just weakens the overall case for Maori. Can they really be so self-deluding that they honestly think there is no need for personal responsibility and everything can be solved by spending more (other people's) money? Irrespective of the history you point out, the fact is that outbursts like this just alienate the public and raise UNsympathy to the genuine plight of Maori. The statistics are saddening, but they ARE the facts. The solution has to come from less "poor me" and more "kia kaha!"


Posted on 11-04-2017 18:37 | By Roadkill

Perhaps the treaty settlements could be put to some useful purpose like filtering it done the food chain to where it is obviously needed.


Posted on 11-04-2017 18:31 | By morepork

Sometimes it DOES seem like penalties are too soft. But consider this: What is the purpose of a penal system? Is it to punish or to uphold the Law? If you terrify people into submission have you made a better society? I believe the purpose of prisons is to remove danger to our society and to try and rehabilitate people who get it wrong. All of us make bad choices occasionally, and usually, we know it. We should use prison time as a chance to change the perceptions of the people who committed the crimes. People should obey the Law, not because they are fearful of the consequences if they don't, but because it is the right thing to do and makes life generally easier for everybody. Punishments are NO deterrent. When we hanged and tortured criminals it did not eradicate crime.

This is nonsense (Part2)

Posted on 11-04-2017 18:15 | By morepork

If ANY ethnicity is over-represented in jail, it is regrettable and requires action. BUT demands to throw money at it based on a Treaty are just stupid. Department of Justice needs to be supported by the community (all ethnicities) and joint programs to help people being discharged need to be in place. Better Education and "values oriented" programs in schools (the work done by KiwiCan and FYD in this area is amazing). But, as some here mentioned, the final responsibility is with the individual and the family. That's not something you can legislate for. If you are brought up with a "chip on your shoulder" and told that your hard life is because of the Pakeha system, it would be natural to rebel against that system. Parents, teachers, whanau and iwi, ALL need to change the perceptions. and it starts with the very young.

This is nonsense.

Posted on 11-04-2017 17:53 | By morepork

If the Crown is doing nothing to address the regrettably high rate of Maori re-offending, then it is just nonsense for the Tribunal to say:"...the Crown is ... is in breach of its Treaty obligations to protect Maori interests and to treat Maori equitably." They ARE treating Maori equitably; exactly the same as everyone else. How can the Crown (or anybody other than the people concerned) be expected to change what is obviously a cultural difference based on different values? If "gang culture", tribalism, and lawlessness are seen as positives in a given culture then you can expect people subscribing to that culture to be over-represented in jail. (NOT ALL Maori subscribe to that culture but it is axiomatic from the statistics that more Maori than other Ethnicities do.) It will require social engineering to fix this. That's a job for parents, teachers, and all of us.


Posted on 11-04-2017 17:33 | By Gigilo

I cannot claim to be a Maori, pity my kids are, if they got themselves in trouble with the law or the justice system, mark my words, I would go and kick their offending little butts, oh, but then they would put me in jail. That is what we call justice!

Science and Reason

Posted on 11-04-2017 17:20 | By MichaelAngelo

Dysfunctional societies create dysfunctional citizens. Every person imprisoned creates another dysfunctional family and a new generation of prisoners. It is basic science that punishment does not work. Countries who take responsibility for their citizens such as in Scandinavia, have the most lenient systems, the lowest imprisonment rates, the lowest reoffending, and as a result the least crime. We are wasting so much money on prisons - give people good education, respect, honourable work, a place in society, reward them for what they do - and they will become good citizens! We need to re-examine our ideas and realise that our culture is based on ignorance and move forward .

Couple of Questions

Posted on 11-04-2017 17:06 | By Murray.Guy

First. The Waitangi Tribunal, it's terms of reference appear to be like it's 'Treaty Interpretations', somewhat fluid. Was there NO expiry date for the tribunal. Second. Has the Tribunal 'EVER' found anybody other than the Crown to have breached the 'Treaty' as they choose to interpret it, or is that not possible, not an option open to it?

It is Beyond Belief

Posted on 11-04-2017 16:55 | By Laurie

That people with a modicum of intelligence ie. Waitangi Tribunal can say Maori reoffending is the fault of the Crown - did the reoffenders have a representative of the Crown with them encouraging them to reoffend?? Regardless surely this is an "ambulance at the bottom of the cliff" approach & Maoridom needs to stop playing the "blame game" & break the cycle ie. stop the 1st offence being committed. I think education is the key & a change of attitude from their parents/caregivers - they can achieve as well as anyone else ie. a maori child is not born with a predisposition to commit crime - it is a learnt behaviour.

Typical Robin

Posted on 11-04-2017 16:09 | By NZer

Only Maori can stop Maori reoffending. Stop making excuses Robin otherwise you are letting your people down.

Same old

Posted on 11-04-2017 16:01 | By rastus

When I was at college some fifty years or so ago the countries Government set up the Maori education foundation in an attempt to steer Maori down the right track - did it work - well like everything Maori take on, it worked for five minutes and then sank. I see no where in the treaty that the government has any responsibility to keep Maori on the straight and narrow - in fact they were to be treated along with us 'As one people'- As for R bell - sorry you are a bit thick - why are so many Maori children in state care and why are so many of them suffering such callous treatment from their own parents?? - All this is not rocket science!

Prisoners of Love Mutual Admiration Society (POLMAS

Posted on 11-04-2017 15:30 | By kellbell

This edict looks like it has come from the FO office in wonderland.

R Bell

Posted on 11-04-2017 15:09 | By Roadkill

That sounds like a line or two from the land or noddy? The truth of it Is that a person is responsible for their own action, their own decisions and as is very obvious the consequences e.g. jail. One would think that a person with a functioning brain cell or more would soon figure that "crime does not pay" and "do the crime then do the time". Those persons need to man up, take responsibility for themselves and get a spine instead of bleating endlessly.

Allan Duff

Posted on 11-04-2017 15:03 | By overit

I would love to hear what the renouned Maori author Allan Duff has to say about this diatribe. He is a man of good sense and tells it like it is.Another way to stop reoffending is take all the gangs apart. Perhaps solitary confinement is needed.

No way

Posted on 11-04-2017 14:52 | By Hot stuff

How can they blame the crown , its there own dumb fault they reoffend and get caught

Break the cycle

Posted on 11-04-2017 14:28 | By jimmyant

The only way to stop maori re-offending is to break the cycle. Unfortunately that lifestyle has become ingrained in the lives of too many generations to turn around quickly. We see children brought into the world, then abused by parents and family in so many ways and led by (bad) example that they too become the next generation of offenders with their hands out.If you want a quick fix, take the kids away from that environment before they learn those bad habits and teach them to be functional and contributing members of society.Unfortunately, that will not happen and so we are in a vicious circle that cannot be broken.

OK I am going to say it

Posted on 11-04-2017 14:19 | By lpm67

If you truely want to cut down the offending of a few families that make up the majority of the prison populations (and I include all ethnicities in this), bring in the compulsory sterialisation for all inmates with sentences of 3 months or more.....this will lead to a long term reduction in offending by those families. As for the individuals...train them into a trade and find them employment in that trade well away from family and associates....its the only chance, the Iwi based schemes are not working.

Wrong way round....

Posted on 11-04-2017 14:01 | By RawPrawn

Maori are breaching their Treaty of Waitangi obligations by their persistent high rates of offending!The Waitangi Tribunal has far too much to say

@ R. Bell

Posted on 11-04-2017 13:45 | By Captain Sensible

Thanks R. Bell for confirming to everybody how out of touch with reality you are with your half truths and made up myths. Your excuses are lame and do not make sense. My ancestors suffered terrible atrocities as have everybody's and somewhere down the line, my ancestors were responsible for atrocities as has everybody's. Maori used to slaughter,enslave and eat each other. The Europeans never did that to maori....except in the reinvented version of NZ history, written by the grievance industry to perpetuate the gravy train. Stop making excuses and grow a spine! $40 billion dollars from the taxpayer and still they blame us!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Strangers to the truth strike again

Posted on 11-04-2017 13:26 | By ROCCO

This is the usual warped B/S garbage from a dysfunctional biased outfit that needs to go before it causes irreparable damage to this country and 85% of Kiwis want it gone by lunchtime.

What Next

Posted on 11-04-2017 13:24 | By roseh

I can not believe that it is anyones responsibility other than the Maori committing the crimes.They have had enough pay outs over the years to look after there own.Seems to me this is how they want things.Sadley it's not all of them Just the ones that think it is there right.WAKE UP And get on with it Help your selves

Dino, dumbkof, surfsup,

Posted on 11-04-2017 13:23 | By R. Bell

no-one is to blame for Maori offending if you ignore the generations of marginalization, if you ignore the abuse of the treaty by the crown and successive governments, in your names. If you ignore the abuse suffered by predominately Maori children in state care. If you ignore the inability of many parents caused by inadequate education. Most of all, if you ignore the average Pakeha N.Zrs ignorance of our true history, caused by suppressed truth and blatant indoctrination. Robin Bell.


Posted on 11-04-2017 13:21 | By

Use treaty settlement monies to create remedies for Maori offending.

The blame game

Posted on 11-04-2017 13:21 | By Roadkill

I understood the NZ Police had resolved this issue by not prosecuting part Maori offenders for example in South Auckland, instead sending them off to the local Maraes. Clearly that isn't working any better than jail. That being the case then the numbers are a lot worse than reported?


Posted on 11-04-2017 13:09 | By Incendiary

The sentences our system imposes are too light, It appears the cost of imprisonment vs cost of prisons must be too high here, honestly NZ prisons are more like motels than a punishment. Home detention is a joke a minimum sentence behind bars say 28days before anyone can be bailed to home to a bracelet, and any breach back to jail!! The whole system is going soft.It was suggested recently that the NZ govt should consider subcontracting the Bali govt for prison services. WOW that would surly be a deterrent.

Ditto ...

Posted on 11-04-2017 13:03 | By chancer

... to all these comments. Personal responsibility, nobody is making anybody re-offend and if you do the crime you have to take the punishment and do the time. What's so hard about that ??

something to think about

Posted on 11-04-2017 12:44 | By Captain Sensible

Every time maori ( or anyone else) break the law, that is a Treaty breach, so with all this disproportionate maori offending, it clearly shows that maori are dishonouring the treaty more than anyone else.


Posted on 11-04-2017 12:38 | By Captain Sensible

Why is "the crown" responsible for maori's offending???? How about taking some responsibility for your lives and stop with this blaming anyone but yourselves nonsense!

Me thinks

Posted on 11-04-2017 12:36 | By surfsup

There is a very simple thing that Maori could do to balance the stats...... Stop committing the crimes, there that was easy, no need for the Waitangi tribunal to worry themselves any more


Posted on 11-04-2017 12:34 | By dumbkof2

dont blame the govt. blame the parents for not caring

Oh dear me

Posted on 11-04-2017 12:26 | By Dino

so once again we are being held responsible for the re-offending of maori....maybe some of the monies obtained from the treatie settlements should be used to assist these people back into their communities. If they chose not to be rehabilitated then who are we to blame, and why should the finger continually be pointed at the general populace. Maybe these people don't want to be helped, maybe they don't want to work, maybe a total culture change needs to take place, and the only people who can do that are the communities in which people yourself in the first instance before you can expect others to help you

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