Cliff Rd back in contention for museum

Cliff Rd is being considered for the museum site.

Cliff Rd as a possible museum site will have to receive the same levels of consideration as the central city site, Tauranga City councillors have been told.

The old netball courts on Cliff Rd were first offered to the Tauranga Moana Museum Trust after the waterfront museum on piers was rejected by voters.

The council offered the land and some cash for a geotechnical survey, which it later withdrew, and left the trust to it.

The Cliff Rd site is still supported by both the public and tangata whenua, councillors were told at this month's City Transformation Committee meeting.

Chair Larry Baldock asked staff why architects had to be hired when the councillors had not yet made a choice about the available sites.

“We want to see the results of the investigation for Cliff Rd first so we get the options narrowed down a bit further before we start spending money on architects.”

Heart of the City director Adele Hadfield says the council has to continue to gather information for all of the options so that when they come to the decision point they have enough information on each option that clearly tells them across each of the criteria how the different options rank individually and with each other.

“If you stop working on one, you can't then assess it against another to rank your preference,” says Adele.

Cliff Rd's viability as a site is being assessed not just on how site issues may be solved architecturally, but also economically. There is a whole set of criteria staff will bring evidence back on to get to that preferred option. They need equal evidence against each of the three options.

“If you pause work on one now, it's trying to assess one that's been fully developed against something that's been half-developed,” says Adele.

If the council doesn't treat the assessment of each site equally and have a record of how the decision-making process is followed, the council may then be denied access to government funding for the museum from the Ministry of Culture and Heritage, says project investment planner Carole Canler.

“This process just drives me nuts,” says Larry.

“The government requires us to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on these business cases, thinking it is going to resolve all the questions. And actually the more you get into it, the more you find there are still going to be options at the end where we will make decisions based upon hopefully what the community has asked us to do.

“I am sure that a business case on a combined library/museum in Willow St will actually stack up, but that's not the only criteria we will use to make our decision. We have already had a very clear signal from tangata whenua and from people who participated in the consultation about Cliff Rd.

“I personally want to see that investigated fully, and I can't see why those are not sufficient options for us to complete our requirements for business cases.

“I will support the motion so we continue to move on.”

Information to enable the committee to make a decision about whether the museum will be free entry or user pays will be made next month.


@ Popp-off-da rocka

Posted on 30-09-2017 14:58 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You say "would not be against a museum if it was financially viable". There is no such thing on earth that si where Councils and/or Government are involved. So consistency applies. Popps I woukld even suppoprt a Museum where it was viable. Now we know of course that TCC is clambering over itself to get into this, that means a number of obvious things must be present: a financial disaster, mega staff numbers and all over paid, completely pointless and of course whatever the most extragavent claims to how high the costs will be is guaranteed to be exceeded. I even provided you with a good option, that is summed up by saying "you like it ... you want it ... you do it". Of course you are bailing out as fast as you can on that one arent you! Perhaps you could explain why?

@ Poppo-ya-cork

Posted on 30-09-2017 14:25 | By MISS ADVENTURE

The typing skill and spelling is irrelevant to the truth which I am glad now that you have recognised.


Posted on 29-09-2017 11:01 | By Papamoaner

That's fairly interesting because on earlier museum debates you always maintained that you would not be against a museum if it was financially viable, and I believed you (gullible me). Now, from a different perspective, you say you are "bored" with the concept. Maybe you are just on these threads for the entertainment, and fair enough too. I similarly indulge on some threads for humour, (but not all). But that said, you might have tripped yourself up this time


Posted on 28-09-2017 19:46 | By Papamoaner

Well, it might have helped if you at least had correctly spelled cognitive given that you were questioning my reading ability. Anyway, enough of that, I want to debate the worth of a museum and this car park diversion is just that - a red herring when all other arguments are weak and lacking substance, especially when ReallySimple is unable to answer specific questions on the museum debate, so ignores them and introduces bloody cars instead. Bah humbug! Let's get back on topic and engage or I'll get Mr Bean to knock on your door (I imagine that went right over your head)

AHH a Museum

Posted on 28-09-2017 19:17 | By waiknot

What a wonderful idea, maybe not Im bored already.

@ the foggy haze

Posted on 28-09-2017 17:46 | By MISS ADVENTURE

The only foggy haze is a result of teh quality of whiskey you are on. Throw a few more penny's at it to clear that up. Although the effects wont be any better. Sorry I can but say sorry that you are unable to conprend that written, the oversight in my part is the cognative skills of the reader, I obviously need to be a lot more careful and for instance try to use only one syllable words. Will that help?

@ Poppa-corn-bursted

Posted on 28-09-2017 17:34 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You say "Cliff road current usage" and "accommodates less than 100 cars". These comments dont add up with even the creative from TCC. Also wrong is "new parking building will accommodate nearly 700 cars". Corrections for you ... the Cliff Road carparking has a capacity of some 130, the new car park building at Harrington Street has "nil" capcity at present as not built, it was to be 530 or so, but as Cr Terry surrcummed to adjacent inmate pressure and jascinded his vote of a month prior the remainder of the Councillors fell into line/pressure also and dropped two floors off so there will be only 400 or so. That corrects the errors. What you are missing is the fact that already approved developments in the CBD will remove some 900-odd carparks, do the math! Nothing adds up to well here for the CBD, can you see it?


Posted on 28-09-2017 09:13 | By Papamoaner

Whilst we disagree on most things, I do enjoy your humorous modifications to my login name - quite witty, which I freely acknowledge. I sometimes indulge myself, but regretfully not to your standard. What a shame your rationale on topic seems never to reach the same degree of sophistication, with frequently incoherent ramblings that can sometimes be extremely difficult to decode. Every now and then a brilliant gem of wisdom emerges from the foggy haze. I know you are smoking that horrible stuff that harms our society and our culture, because your posts are not consistent, with wildly varying contrasts. Each to his/her own I guess.

Cliff road current usage

Posted on 28-09-2017 08:32 | By Papamoaner

Simple.really has erroneously claimed that the museum will leave the CBD devoid of car parking. Cliff road accommodates less than 100 cars. The new parking building will accommodate nearly 700 cars.

@ Poppo-ya-cork

Posted on 28-09-2017 00:59 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You say "carpark revenue versus museum revenue" the correct wording would be nearer "carpark revenue versus museum massive losses, debt, rates, staff numbers and the crazies are out ..." Can you spot the difference? Do you want to spot teh difference ... do you comprehend .... NAH

@Really simpleton

Posted on 27-09-2017 20:32 | By Papamoaner

Aha, you continue to avoid the question(s). OK, I rest my case. I can't be bothered rubbing your face in it. We are debating a museum, not bloody car parking problems. DUH!

Still waiting..

Posted on 27-09-2017 17:49 | By simple.really

to hear where the CBD workers would park their cars Papamoaner? Go there one morning and see how busy Cliff Rd carpark is. Then perhaps you'll understand how important it is to keep it and not replace it with a monstrosity of a museum. Do that at Historic Village.....oh wait, already done and failed. Oops.

Aimless kids

Posted on 27-09-2017 17:38 | By Papamoaner

I reckon the anti-everything, anti-museum brigade are partly responsible for glue sniffers, taggers and petty crime committed by aimless young people, many of whom have extraordinary talent to be exploited for the good of society. Some of these mean minded ratepayers have two cars that cost an order of magnitude more to run than their annual rates and they don't give a stuff about the future of the kids, let alone the general good of the community. Thank heavens they are a REAL minority, albveit an imagined majority.


Posted on 27-09-2017 17:30 | By Papamoaner

Oops! You have moved the goalposts. You were arguing about carpark revenue versus museum revenue. Now you have changed it to "where will they park?" in reply to my response. What is it you wish to debate? We can debate those two issues separately, but it is ridiculous and subjective to try to combine them into a single argument. I believe it's called"floundering" when you have no solid argument basis. Can you please also define your "very much a minority" Where did you get your data for that? Finally, I didn't understand your telling me to "do my maths" Perhaps you could elaborate as I am happy to comply.


Posted on 27-09-2017 16:12 | By Papamoaner

Your simplistic hypothesis only applies to this forum, not to the community at large. Majorities seldom applaud that with which they agree. They normally only object in numbers to that with which they jointly disagree. That is the simple psychology of the crowd (mob psychology if you like). Take for example the 1980's Springbok rugby tour. Thousands hit the streets. Why? - because a significant majority of the community were against it. Which brings us to THE QUESTION;- Where are the hundreds if not thousands of people protesting against a museum??You don't know? Well I do - they don't exist, apart from a small handful on this thread that you have erroneously and foolishly presented as a "majority" There is a smell of dishonesty in the air around this debate. Prove us wrong if you can!

Do your maths Papamoaner!

Posted on 27-09-2017 14:28 | By simple.really

On average there are 350 cars parked in the 2 Cliff Rd carparks, at a cost of $2.50 per day. These are people who work in the CBD, many from out of town who can't use buses...because there are none. Where do you propose they park??? Given that Tauranga history of poor attendance/interest in a museum, why on earth do you keep advocating for one? You are very much a minority.


Posted on 27-09-2017 11:03 | By Angels

Please note in every single time this issue shows up you are one of only a few that promote this financial disaster for the ratepayers. You are and have been out voted on this forum 4-5 to 1 against the museum. You are a very lone wolf with vultures from the council trying to railroad this VERY unpopular idea.No museum

@Backofthe queue

Posted on 27-09-2017 10:26 | By Papamoaner

Take a look at how museums are funded and how that changes over time. There is ample data to be found online. Remember also, that there is no comparison now between "old traditional" museums (musty old halls of whispering observers) and modern interactive museums (busy, educational and interactive). You will find that as research organisations like universities, schools, gov't departments etc become involved, especially with experimental displays, funding flows with them. But the biggest spin-off of all, and the most important, is the kick-start in life and career direction choices that it provides for young people, and that can in turn be equated to revenue value. Most of the opposers are concerned only about "their rates" which in reality, equate to a small fraction of the cost and worth of running their car or two cars, which curiously they seem not to care about.


Posted on 27-09-2017 10:13 | By Papamoaner

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are comparing one vehicle with 10 or more visitors.

Cliff Rd Carpark

Posted on 27-09-2017 09:15 | By simple.really

is chokka block every day with paying customers. Where will all these people park if the carpark is demolished? Surely this carpark generates more income daily than what a museum will ??


Posted on 27-09-2017 08:57 | By Papamoaner

Good idea. Give them short shrift. Plenty of room for them in Gore since you can count them all on one and a half hands. Dangerously close to Stewart Island though, one of the most beautiful places in the country. This lot would convert it into a whinging moaner's haven. Might be better to send them back to mother England out of harm's way.

What's really lacking...

Posted on 27-09-2017 08:53 | By backofthequeue

It's not so much a museum that Tauranga is lacking as it is the dearth of philanthropy. There is great wealth to be found in this city - success that could be shared by funding such a centrepiece project. To just place the burden on council and ratepayers, especially at the astronomical costs being touted, is truly like adding insult to injury.

The few are confused

Posted on 27-09-2017 06:58 | By Sg1nz

I love reading on herd how the majority don't want a museum. The problem with that is all of the community engagement, surveys and sessions that have been run. Show the exact opposite. For the few that don't want it, maybe it time to move to Gore.


Posted on 26-09-2017 22:43 | By Papamoaner

Good on you. That's a neat wee museum. If you ever get a chance, visit the Airforce Museum at Wigram- impressive, with interactive displays. They liaised with Te Awamutu on the Lancaster Bomber. If you've ever seen a Lancaster up close (there's one at MOTAT) you will oggle at the small size of it considering it can carry a 10 tonne bomb. How the hell they managed to squeeze a crew of 7 in there as well, is hard to imagine. I was once lucky enough to crawl through one. The whole thing was like a sardine tin, but a magnificent fighting machine. Once we get all these museums up and running and linked together with stuff like this, the sky's the limit and tourists will love it. Those old "not for profit" days have gone.

Museum for Who?

Posted on 26-09-2017 20:47 | By stokey

When are these loonies and their cronies going to get the message that the majority of ratepayers DONT WANT A MUSEUM! If there is a genuine financial case for one then get private enterprise to build it and make it 'user pays'. Council should get off their ego trip and stick to their core business


Posted on 26-09-2017 20:39 | By Papamoaner

Good points. Museums these days are starting to generate income that was previously unheard of under the old regime of "not for profit" Quite a bit of leading edge research is being done by museums now, and it's not all by TePapa either. Otago are pretty active. It won't be too daunting a learning curve because we already have empirical models to follow.

Costing is over the top

Posted on 26-09-2017 17:50 | By davidt5

Recently visited the Te Awamutu museum. Very interesting and informative. Cost to set up has to be below $ 1 million.Local consultants are day dreaming if they expect to get support for a venture costing $ 30 million plus. Only when the costing comes down to realistic figures will this venture even look like getting off the ground.Generally we are very poorly serviced when our council gets involved in any intended project. Projected costs have an extra nought added on to them as the council tries to show us how they are able to think big, but all they really achieve is to show us ratepayers how out of touch they really are.

Pappork idea

Posted on 26-09-2017 17:24 | By maildrop

It's a long way to dig down to the basement seawater aquarium under the constantly changing museum! Keep the ideas coming.

FANTASTIC! But do it right this time.

Posted on 26-09-2017 17:17 | By BlueberryBee

Fantastic Location given all the historical sights in the surrounding area. However lets hope they plan things right. Ie Parking and Profit! Lets not forget the poorly run Tauranga Historic Village that run at a loss for along time. I really did love it in its hay day. BUT! it really did go down hill in the end. So if this goes ahead. PLEASE PLEASE get it right.


Posted on 26-09-2017 15:47 | By overit

Would love to know why tangata whenua are so keen on this site. Future rent perhaps.


Posted on 26-09-2017 12:38 | By JJ7

No if we need a museum then it should be at Historic Village - but we don't need one. Will end up like marinland and water slides we had on leisure island

NO !!!

Posted on 26-09-2017 11:55 | By tutae.kuri

Councillors use your own money !!

On Going Saga

Posted on 26-09-2017 10:27 | By chatter

of Council spending money IT DOES NOT HAVE on developments the MAJORITY do not want or need.I would be petitioning that my rates are not increased or used for something I do not support...


Posted on 26-09-2017 08:58 | By Papamoaner

Well I'm guessing the geotechnical engineers need some idea of the shape, size, and mass of the proposed building before they can produce a proper foundation plan based upon proposed loadings. Hence the involvement of an architectural consultant. That's probably all it is at this stage - a consultation. There will likely be other consultations in various disciplines along the way. Good to see some movement on the project.


Posted on 26-09-2017 08:42 | By hapukafin

Who is going to pay for this and who is going to keep it afloat in the future?Rate payers dont want it'


Posted on 26-09-2017 08:26 | By dumbkof2

lets have a binding referrendom. but no the tcc and the museum ego trippers are too afraid they will lose out

Ratepayer do not want museum

Posted on 26-09-2017 07:39 | By Angels

When are the VERY few going to listen to the majority.We do not want a museum

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