Here's an idea...

Posted on 21-12-2010 12:39 | By morepork

How about the 3 Iwi simply share their "customary rights" with the rest of us? I can't imagine anyone wanting to prevent Maori taking kaimoana as they always have (provided proper conservation is observed), so what is this really all about? Is it simply mana in having title, like it was for Mauao? Not a problem. That exercise showed that most people are OK with Maori having title as long as safeguards are in place to ensure the rest of us have continued access, and there will be no "development" without consultation. The Tauranga Iwi could be the first to work out a solution that recognises the rights of ALL NZers, and is more unifying than divisive. The sooner we grow up and stop squabbling about events that none of us were involved in, the sooner we can get on with building a nation where ALL NZers can be proud to live. There was fighting and war. People died. Good people on both sides. And the result is what we see today. We have the chance to show the world that it is possible to build a decent society from diverse cultures with many different Ethnicities. Mutual respect and goodwill is the key, with people being proud of their heritage and keeping their respective cultures alive, but recognising that the citizenship of NZ is primary. And that NZ culture has to be seen to be fair with no particular group getting a bigger share than the rest. Apartheid doesn't work and nobody really wants to live like that. I would urge our local Iwi to make a gesture that could send a shock wave through the whole question of the foreshore and renounce their customary rights claim in favour of guaranteed access to kaimoana for ALL in the local community. Maybe we agree to local community trusts or similar to manage and preserve the beaches for all. Respect for Maori rights (real or imagined) is important as part of a New Zealand culture, but we don't want an Apartheid society where ANY one section has more rights than any other. And none of us wants ot be in the

Posted on 21-12-2010 13:00 | By SpeakUp

Listen up, mate! WE HAD ENOUGH OF WORDS! We had enough of you officials stealing and wasting our money for frivolous, racist, opportunistic and divisive legislation, which will just be another feeding frenzy of lawyers, more vote buying from bullshititians and further racist fragmentation of the vast majority of New Zealand people who want to get along in harmony but are not allowed to do so because of some pigheaded, racist, opportunist career suckers. Get a life, get a real job and be kind to your next-door neighbors. Merry Christmas.

What about everyone else?

Posted on 21-12-2010 13:50 | By The author of this comment has been removed.

So, 3 Tauranga iwi oppose the legislation because it doesn't make it easy enough for them to claim? Diddums..... And just because 3 iwi winge that they will have a hard case to prove, Mr Flavell will seek changes to the bill? Well, what about the rest of us who opposed this flawed and devisive legislation??? All MP's should be serving the best interests of the country as a whole, not just a select few based on racial preference. An overwhelming number of respondents to the call for submissions on the bill also wanted it clearly noted that there would be free and unrestricted access for recreational AND commercial users for the marine resource and areas. Chris Finlayson has a long history of giving away NZ/Crown assetts to his corporate Maori mates/benefactors. This legislation is racially predjudiced garbage and should be scrapped. Some people need to 'get real' and let bygones be bygones. Any country that was colonised over 100 years ago is going to have suffered some injustices along the way. Compared with many other native populations in the world to come under the control of the various colonial powers, the Maori would have to admit that they came out of it relatively well - not perfect by any means, but alot better off than others. Most others never had such a thing as a 'treaty' for starters, areas/countries were simply taken over as spolis of war. This was common practice 'for the times' even in maori inter-tribal conflicts. It is drawing a long bow to try to impose 20th century principles on to issues that happened decades or centuries ago, and expecting the current government and people of the nation to continually gift-back or provide handouts $$$ to those with an extremist entitlement mentality. It amazes me that some Maori have the nerve to still complain that they are 'so disadvantaged' compared with the rest of us. They not only have equal opportunity to excell and succeed, but extra assistance with education, health and welfare from specialist organisations, etc. It is little wonder than the nation is becoming incensed. The Marine and coastal areas bill is nothing more than a land/asset/power grab for fizzed-up corporate iwi, and a potential huge money pit for the unscrupulous factions of the legal fraternity to feast on like pigs in swill.... the next phase of the Treaty grievance industry..... Quite racist as well seeing as non-maori are not allowed to seek title, even if they can prove exclusive ownership since 1840!!! Never trust a politians word.....that's for sure!

Agree

Posted on 21-12-2010 17:46 | By Jitter

I agree fully with the first four comments. Maori "Customary Rights" means that they can claim anything they like whether they have a right to it or not. They don't have to produce any documentary proof as the rest of us do. This is completely undemocratic and immediately puts the majority of NZers at a severe disadvantage. If one iwi puts a claim in for a section of the coast you can guarantee that half a dozen others will dispute this. The cry from Maori that their land was seized illegally in the 1800s in many, many cases is a load of absolute rubbish. If you study our historical documents, commentaries by Maori elders etc in the National Archives you will find that much of the land Maori say was seized illegally was in fact purchased legally by the government of the day. One example of this is vast tracts of land on the East Coast. Maori agreed to the sales but the various iwi argued amongst themselves over ownership (so what has changed today ?). The government surveyed the land agreed to for sale and waited patiently for the numerous iwi to sort out amongst themselves who in fact owned what land so they could pay the rightful owners. In the end in desperation in many cases the government handed over the sale money to an elder and said "Mate you sort it out amongst yourselves". In these sales Maori were paid the current market rate of the day per acre which ranged from one shilling to five shillings per acre. So why are we now paying Maori hundreds of millions of dollars in many cases for land that has already been paid for ? It is like me selling my house and in ten years time going to the purchaser and saying "You didn't pay me enough. I want more". If the Waitangi claims are allowed to continue based wholly on hearsay or "customary right" NZ will eventually become bankrupt and certainly the lasughing stock of the rest of the world. It is time Maori took responsibility and sorted themselves out but not at the expense of the rest of us.

agreed

Posted on 21-12-2010 18:11 | By grahamwood

I largely agree with the sentiments expressed by morepork. A divided society will fall in time, as history has proved time and time again. I work alongside maori people and non maori people and I respect them equally. We have to learn to trust each other or we as a society/country are heading for ethnic strife and ruin. We have seen this in other countries many times over. A society where one group has more rights than another is headed for disaster. Sure, Maori got a rough deal in some places and even though I was not even born in this lovely country, I am willing to say some of my ancestors from the UK did not act justly so some "putting right" is in order. But creating a divided and unequal society is not the way to go. Transferring privileges from one group and giving to another just creates more inequality. And at the end of the day we are all on the same team, fighting to progress this country, I hope, so we all can live in peace and prosperity. Yes, id like to see all of us have free access to the shoreline and the bounty it contains, irrespective of race, or any other potential dividing line. Its all about mutual respect and honouring our different cultures and beliefs. Neither the red-necks or the Harawiras of this world have the right stance. They are angry, bigoted folk who try to transfer their hang-ups onto others. Lets create a society which is motivated by justice for all, and not just some.

Confiscation not payment

Posted on 21-12-2010 20:13 | By Colleen Spiro

A huge amount of Maori land was confiscated as was stated in the article. I have a list of SOME of the breaches of the Treaty since 1841 - 1986. I got this list when I did a bit of traning for a Department on the Treaty. Anyone interested, flick me an email on [email protected] and I will gladly give you a copy and no, I am not Maori.

IWI

Posted on 21-12-2010 20:35 | By KiwiSteve

Does IWI stand for I Want It?

kiaora2u question..

Posted on 22-12-2010 10:10 | By Murray.Guy

Kiaora2u Do you (or anyone) have a list of SOME (any) of the Treaty breaches by Maori, if infact any breaches occured? This would better enable balance and add integrity to the discussion and outcomes.

Here's another idea...

Posted on 22-12-2010 14:57 | By morepork

Why don't we simply agree (and pass legislation accordingly) that the Treaty of Waitangi is invalid after 2040? 200 years. Time enough for ALL parties to "get over it". 30 years to make the mental adjustment and see that any REAL grievances are addressed and settled FINALLY. That's it, no more, move on. Instead of being anchored in the past by a document that was hurriedly thrown together in a few days to prevent the French laying claim to NZ, why don't we accept it has served its purpose, nobody alive today was involved in what happened, and its time our energy and resources stopped being drained by squabbling over something that SHOULD be a non-issue? Let's ensure respect for all Ethnicities but only ONE set of "RIGHTS"; rights conferred by New Zealand Citizenship. Sadly, no response from Iwi, or anyone supporting their position.

Breaches of the Treaty

Posted on 22-12-2010 18:25 | By Colleen Spiro

I said I did Murray and yes I do have a copy, as I was taught it. I stated so above... They are Acts and Ordinances that were passed in Parliament from 1840 -1986 .

response to kiaora2u

Posted on 23-12-2010 14:38 | By morepork

The problem with this is that historical injustice is exactly that, historical. If there was legal "confiscation" by the Crown there must be a documented case as to why it occurred. Was compensation paid at the time or has that just been omitted from the records you hold? There has to be a reason why land was taken. Was it taken in lieu of Taxes, for instance? If there are serious injustices or breaches of the Law on the part of the Crown in the record, then these must be addressed. But it is historical. When do we let it go? How long do we go on with an endless stream of "injustices"? Should everyone in Britain be demanding reparations against the French because of William the Conqueror? Do we have to wait 950 years before we can "let it go"? My point is that we ALL have to draw a line somewhere (I'm suggesting 2040) if this country is to have any kind of future. We have to front up to the past and say:"Yes, there are things our ancestors could have done better (on both sides; Maori were not entirely blameless...) We've done our best to compensate for it. Can we all move on now, please?" By 2040 there will be no-one alive in NZ who was directly involved in the NZ Wars, and tales told by grandparents and great-grandparents will be a distant memory. Sooner or later this slate has to be wiped. Most of us want to live happily in a society that is fair and honest with ONE set of RIGHTS for ALL NZers. Anything else is just divisive and unhelpful.

FLAVELLS FLURRY

Posted on 29-12-2010 09:39 | By Ratcatcher

A prejudiced & racially divisive stance. Maori iwi for their own selfish interests see this as yet another taxpayer gravy train.The rest of the critics see it for the rort that it is being perpetrated against all NZers.With few exceptions the Foreshore & Seabed belong to all NZers with ownership vested in the Crown as their guardian.