Ngai Tamarawaho are looking to extend the Gate Pa battle site to include historic land across Cameron Road under the Gate Pa Bowling Club.
Peri Kohu, a member of the trust which organised last month's 150th commemoration of the event, says Ngai Tamarawaho aspirations include the rest of the historic site.
The official Gate Pa Battle site is opposite the Gate Pa Bowling Club on Cameron Road.
'We are investigating ways to get that land back,” says Peri.
'I understand its council land and all the implications that go with that.
'That is part of the battle site of Gate Pa, in fact it's a major part of the site. It's discussions around that.”
The battle site wasn't included in recent Treaty of Waitangi settlements because Treaty claims cannot be made against private land.
'But we disagree with that,” says Peri.
'We haven't even had discussions. It's aspirations amongst tangata whenua. But as tangata whenua of that area up there, we will definitely be interested in what happens to that land in the future.”
The interest includes both sides of the site, which includes the wooded slope on the eastern side of the park where Maori killed in the pa were buried after the battle. It's an area they need to take better care of, says Peri.
'That swamp where our people are buried and the opposite side where the bowling club and tennis courts are - we are definitely interested in bringing that back into the memorial.
The site has a much higher public profile following the 150th commemorations, and they will continue to work on the site's public profile, says Peri.
'We need to develop it more. In the past it's been forced into obscurity. We are going to change that as we have already started, as you can see.”
The original pa site straddled what is now Cameron Road, with the main part of the earthworks on the land that is now roadway and the Gate Pa Bowling Club.
The pa site itself was disturbed by two redoubts the British built on the site, then the roadway cutting and the levelling of the bowling greens and tennis club.
The Gate Pa Domain was acquired by the then Tauranga Council in several parts, from 1887 to 1908 and was administered by the Gate Pa Domain Board until the Reserves Act in 1977. The greens and the courts are believed to have been established in the early to mid-1950s.
The fortifications of the Pukehinahina Pa extended from the Gate Pa Church across Cameron Road and past the Gate Pa Bowling Club.
The Pa site is largely destroyed by the development of the Church, Bowling Club and roadway, although a small redoubt may have stood on a level area on the north-west side of Cameron Road, which is relatively undisturbed, says TCC website information ascribed to Gilbert Mair.
On the slope 29 Maori casualties are buried in a single grave, though its location is not known.
The section of the Domain to the east of Cameron Road, adjacent to the Gate Pa Church is classified as a Historic Reserve under Section 18 of the Historic Places Act. This part of the Domain is not covered by the Active Reserves Management Plan.
To the west of Cameron Road, the 2.9ha Domain is a classified recreation reserve. The Gate Pa Bowling Club and Gate Pa Tennis Club are located on the flat part with road frontage onto Cameron Road, zoned Recreation B in the District Plan.
The Domain then slopes down the hill to Watling Street. This part of the Domain is undeveloped and zoned conservation in the District Plan, indicating the heritage value of the site.



69 comments
.
Posted on 21-05-2014 13:20 | By whatsinaname
leave it how it is. it can still be part of the site...................
Sorry but Council shouldn't cave in
Posted on 21-05-2014 13:22 | By Councillorwatch
Don't sell or gift this reserve land. It currently has a nice use as a bowling green and is well maintained.
It Never ends!!!
Posted on 21-05-2014 14:00 | By Mary Faith
Good grief - what next!!! So they are "Investigating ways to get the land back" ! Who pays for these investigations I wonder?
This is NOT the way ...
Posted on 21-05-2014 14:13 | By Murray.Guy
This is not the way! Please, please, start focusing on building the relationship before you continue down this pathway of asset ownership! The community have been mostly passive observers, denied any meaningful participation, in Treaty settlement processes, have listened, and a few actually believed, the rhetoric by the Crown in regards a 'full & final settlement' process, that the future was about taking New Zealand forward as 'one New Zealand', as per the 'treaty intent'. The ink is barely dry, the dust from the settlement celebrations hardly settled - and the smiles and claps have descended in frowns and demands. Let's see a list Mr Kohu, of all Iwi aspirations, NOW, up front and transparent, of all those areas and assets Tangata Whenua covet in addition to those agreed by the Crown and in community and private ownership. I'm aware of a number yet disclosed publically!
OMG ....
Posted on 21-05-2014 15:03 | By nzsister
What is this going to cost for us rate payers? The land is being used and respected by many of the community - please let it be.
Enough is enough, is it not?
Posted on 21-05-2014 15:20 | By nerak
Come on, will there ever be an end to this nonsense. So the bowling green goes, to be replaced by what, a patch of bush lawyer and deadly nightshade, maybe some tutu? Probably what it looked like way back. Perhaps Mr Kohu could put his time and energies into utilising some of the land/handout monies for something which would benefit ALL the people of Tauranga, instead of just a few. In the meantime, and I don't play bowls, for goodness sake leave the bowling club alone.
Surprise...
Posted on 21-05-2014 15:27 | By penguin
...surprise. Here we go again. Move beyond the past grievances etc and try being more positive - that's what maoridom should be doing. Incidentally, isn't it the same hapu that took offence to something on the plaque fixed to the rock when route P was opened and had the plaque removed?
Don't stop there !!
Posted on 21-05-2014 15:41 | By mutley
have Cameron Rd too so that the hapu can build a tollgate.
Hapu eye Gate Pa Bowling Site
Posted on 21-05-2014 16:18 | By katarina9
How did this land get to be private land?? Is it another one of those 1864 push Maori off the land jobs.by Curious
1864/1964
Posted on 21-05-2014 17:16 | By friendee
As a kid I remember the troops marching in Cameron Road at the 100 year celebration, it was such a different sight compared to the over weight chanting hoo haa that went on this year. And.... in the last 50 years where have this land grabbing mob been ?, certainly not keeping this area tidy, and contributing to the community etc.
Enuff is Enuff
Posted on 21-05-2014 17:18 | By Ross01
Hey hapu , you not thinking clearly. You forgot to claim for a toll road between Gate Pa shops and Greerton
Private land should be sacred
Posted on 21-05-2014 18:14 | By Te Ponui
but this and many other sites are not private land. Maori have been passive Mr Guy and have graciously accepted that not all lands would ever be returned. The intent of many settlements - not just here in Tauranga - allow for Maori to negotiate the purchase of such sites before any private developers. And this should be the way it is. Take the airport lands that a certain developer was able to obtain. These should have been offered to Maori first as they were taken as part of public works act. Maori should be given first option to have our lands back before individuals ever get to the table.
Great News!!
Posted on 21-05-2014 19:16 | By hakihana
This is wonderful, absolutely hapu should be looking to regain what they are rightfully entitled to. Give the darn thing back, god knows pakeha are continuously scrapping over what's theirs anyway, they can't even get along as neighbours generally. Giving it back to the hapu will ensure its preservation for many generations to come, leave it in the hands of pakeha and well here comes another environmentally damaging development!
land grabbers
Posted on 21-05-2014 21:13 | By rosscoo
NO to giving land back to Maori, Look what happened to Raglan golf course it now just a pile of gorse. We have to stop giving in to Maori demands they just ruin everything with there lazy attitude It just another way of trying to get something for nothing where will it end? They were not even first here anyway?
Te Ponui and airport ...
Posted on 21-05-2014 23:26 | By Murray.Guy
Te Ponui and airport ... Agreed! A little clarity. The land hasn't been given to a developer, it has been leased by the Council and the income is used to hide the losses of the airport. That aside, I understand the land was taken under the public works act (war time I think?) and any use by the Council of that land NOT consistent with it's tasking, should be offered back!
Toll gate
Posted on 22-05-2014 09:25 | By ow
what a brilliant place for a toll gate.
gate pa
Posted on 22-05-2014 10:30 | By surfsup
the council should be bold and tell them that don't bother as you have no claim.Sadly they will enter into discussions that will require meetings that will be for Maori only to speak at ,and so it goes on and on.
What is the way Murray?
Posted on 22-05-2014 11:00 | By robin bell
Your impassioned plea for Maori to wait before continuing down the "pathway to asset ownership" is,with respect, ridiculous.Wait till when? They have been waiting for generations Murray.The day you dream of will never come.Witness the comments below.Apart from the bowling green, the "asset" is largely unused,yet you would deny Maori the use of it as a memorial to those who died,Maori and Pakeha. Maori still lie in the land in question. We (Pakeha) don't lose anything,we gain the goodwill of Ngai Tamarawaho.That is not important to some (rosscoo,Ross o1)etc,etc. They should understand,"No to giving land back to Maori" is an admission of theft. Robin Bell.
All One
Posted on 22-05-2014 16:30 | By Jitter
We are all NZers so the land belongs to everyone not just one small group who think they have a right to any area they demand. Do they have any evidence to say it is theirs? If taken under the Public Works Act then they are in exactly the same situation as many other NZers who have had land taken. If they get "their" land back why should not all other NZers in the same situation do the same. What a bloody mess this country would be in if they did, even more of a mess than it is now.
Jitter,
Posted on 22-05-2014 21:43 | By robin bell
you clearly do not understand the situation. The land in question,taken under the Public Works Act,was for a "specific" use.It was not used for that purpose,instead of returning it to the previous owners,it was kept for a different use,commercial in nature. In any language that is theft.The instances you give regarding other N.Zrs is yet another smart-ass diversion. Land taken for roads,rail,strategic uses etc are used for the purpose stated and compensated for. Grow up Jitter. Robin Bell.
Dishonesty robin bell is not the way
Posted on 22-05-2014 22:45 | By Murray.Guy
I am asked, which is the way by 'robin bell'. Firstly, yet me tell you with no hesitation, dishonesty, deliberate misrepresentation to skew an argument is NOT the way. Your reflection on my contribution is just that. Nowhere have I written, nor do I believe, what you attribute to me, 'yet you would deny Maori the use of it as a memorial to those who died..' Reading your posts robin bell It appears as if you have an agenda to promote division in our community, racial disharmony, but I had thought, misguidedly or otherwise, you likely expressed an honest opinion - I was clearly mistaken. Appreciate you don't have exclusivity to this approach. What is 'my way' you ask? It is an 'inclusive, upfront and transparent way', with every effort being applied to ensure the very best outcomes are achieved for all.
Rossco
Posted on 23-05-2014 01:22 | By Te Ponui
Are you familiar with the old Raglan golf course site? I was born in Kawhia and can remember stock needing to be grazed to keep the gorse down and wild pigs rutting the place up. Did you also know that for a long period there was a community centre that was open to all peoples? You have flogged this one before so you should really take a drive over there and see the state of it now. I am there at least 5 times a year and know the place well. Grasp at another straw, this one is dead.
Gate Pa site
Posted on 23-05-2014 11:05 | By YOGI BEAR
Way to large now, I think that the letter to the editor a couple a weeks ago was on the money, the whole thing is completely over rated and over dramatized and some here.
Was this land
Posted on 23-05-2014 13:43 | By Fonzie
part of the land that was sold to the mission church society? Does anyone know?
Murray?
Posted on 23-05-2014 16:32 | By crazyhorse
Bell say's Murray ,If you say "No" to giving land back to Maori" it is an admission of theft. Probably ear marks you as racist as well, please Murray do the right thing and apologise to the "apologist" Bell.
Robin Bell
Posted on 23-05-2014 20:45 | By Jitter
Yes I do know how the Public Works Act operates. This is where the Blue Laws surface again. Because someone else owns the land and local iwi want it these laws apply. I have read that there are already plans to put the Battle of Gate Pa display permanently in the bowling club rooms. A bit premature don't you think ? Unfortunately there have been other cases where land has been taken under the PWA and locals have been compensated for this but in later years they have still cried foul. I agree with Murray Guy that you seem to have an agenda to promote division in our community. What are you hoping to gain out of it ?
Robin Bell
Posted on 23-05-2014 20:45 | By Jitter
Yes I do know how the Public Works Act operates. This is where the Blue Laws surface again. Because someone else owns the land and local iwi want it these laws apply. I have read that there are already plans to put the Battle of Gate Pa display permanently in the bowling club rooms. A bit premature don't you think ? Unfortunately there have been other cases where land has been taken under the PWA and locals have been compensated for this but in later years they have still cried foul. I agree with Murray Guy that you seem to have an agenda to promote division in our community. What are you hoping to gain out of it ?
Krazy Steed
Posted on 24-05-2014 02:34 | By YOGI BEAR
Yeah now isn't that a loaded question for Murray, no answer will provide a better "win-win" situation right. When that happens you know for sure that greed is the driving force in it all. Credibility gone and some, but still the comedy show rolls on.
Murray,
Posted on 24-05-2014 10:48 | By robin bell
That's twice youv'e called me dishonest,now you claim I "promote division".(see how the Vultures" cicle.)To delay is to deny Murray,in the context of Maori aspirations,that is an anathema.They ,until very recently have been denied repeatedly. You now claim I"promote division" For well in excess of 50yrs I have lived in a predominantly Maori family,never once have I witnessed the racist garbage promoted by some in these columns. I do not speak for the Maori people (they are more than capable)I speak against those, crazy,bear, jitts etc who use Sunlive to spread thier particular brand of political claptrap.Not pretty I know,but thats the way it is. I do not include you in in that group,Murray and apologise for any misunderstanding. That was not my intention. Robin Bell.
Murray
Posted on 24-05-2014 19:46 | By Te Ponui
the racial disharmony surely comes from the likes of silly donkey and pooh bear who continually try to justify the wrong doings by the british for not allowing Maori access to justice. Recent legislation allows for proper compensation unlike lands confiscated from Maori - there is a big difference.
Robin Bell
Posted on 25-05-2014 17:13 | By Jitter
I agree with some of your reply to Murray Guy. It is not the majority of "Maori" causing the grief but the racist separatists like eg Margaret Grigg or Gregg (Mutu), John Hadfield whose ancestor was an Anglican Bishop in NZ, Ken Mair etc etc. I have the greatest respect for the "Maori" in the street and have a number of friends among them who, believe it or not, think the way I do and are embarrassed by this grab everything attitude, the Waitangi settlements etc. It is the "Maori" who have worked hard all their lives to help build NZ who hate what is going on.
Murray
Posted on 25-05-2014 18:06 | By YOGI BEAR
Now that is the truth, don't you worry about the non believers as they will onward deny everything. Add to that the rosette coloured glasses that they look from behind.
Treaty gurus teach guilt
Posted on 26-05-2014 08:34 | By Jeromy Murkin
A certain class of gurus has grown up in New Zealand in recent years who, somewhat like the soothsayers of old, seem to feel that they are especially qualified to teach us about what the Treaty of Waitangi reallymeans. This is the first part of a two-part series on these merchants of guilt who target somewhat naïve, well-meaning people to tell them how their wicked white coloniser forebears wronged noble-savage Maori. In reality, the treaty is a simple and succinct document whose actual meaning can be explained in about five minutes to anybody who wants to know. I take a few minutes of your time to do just that here and now, noting as I do that there is only one treaty, a document in the Ngapuhi dialect of the Maori language of 1840. READ MORE TRUTH. http://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/bruce-moon-treaty-gurus-teach-guilt.html
I can't find...
Posted on 26-05-2014 15:09 | By morepork
any posts here that mention the Europeans who were killed. The fact is that both sides deserve honour and respect. Does that extend to "recovering" land 150 years on? There is a very adequate (and poignantly moving) memorial already on the site; no one will forget Gate Pa, irrespective of their skin colour, and those of us who are the New Zealanders know that huge sacrifices were made to forge our nation. Life moves on. Land is used because it has to be, and there is nothing wrong with a Bowling green (or even a Mitre 10 Mega) covering the struggles of the past. Cows graze peacefully on the battlefields of the Somme and Ypres where many thousands died. Hastings (Senlac) is a peaceful meadow where the entire course of history was changed in 1066. We don't need an expanded Memorial for Gate Pa. Let them RIP.
morepork,Goodwill is
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:52 | By robin bell
the problem here,or the lack of it. You will find that most of the N.Zrs here understand and respect the sacrifices made in building this nation,but its not built yet. The Hapu in question are simply asking for a small area to be returned to their care. A very small gesture of goodwill is all that is required,but no,keep up the division,keep up the disrespect. The Crown acknowledges,the land was taken illegally,compensation less than 10% of true value. Show some goodwill,join hands and embrace this nation for what it is,or should be. Two founding races,working together,respecting each others difference and welcoming new immigrants with the knowledge that race is not divisive in N.Z. Is it so difficult? Robin Bell.
morepork,Goodwill is
Posted on 27-05-2014 21:59 | By crazyhorse
Never asking questions and always saying yes, if not you admit "theft" and "racism", can you live with that label morepork??.
@Robin Bell
Posted on 28-05-2014 14:52 | By morepork
I agree there is a shortage of goodwill.Have you thought about why that might be? When people see one particular sector favoured over another it can only breed discord and resentment. There were wrongs in the past, and most fair-minded people agree they need to be addressed. And they have been, to a point where it has set back our development as a country by years. Billions of dollars in reparation, from a nation of under 5 million people. It cannot go on indefinitely. I am not responsible for what my ancestors did; none of us are, whether it was great or ignoble. The future of TODAY's tamariki and mokopuna cannot be mortgaged for some snouts in a trough (no matter what colour they are). The Hapu have the same rights to visit the site as any other NZers. It must be SEEN to be FAIR.
Racist?
Posted on 28-05-2014 15:13 | By morepork
Robin Bell says it is disrespectful and racist not to accede to the Hapu's request. He says we are a nation of two races. That sounds like apartheid to me. I see (and welcome) the diversity that is NZ in the 21st century. I'm proud to be a Kiwi and I know that Maoritanga and cultural respect is an important part of my heritage. I don't mean any disrespect when I say "enough is enough". A small percentage of people are looking for a perpetual handout and that is not what we should be pandering to. Unfortunately, matters of "mana" are also often matters of "money". If the Hapu agreed to waive all income from the site, in perpetuity, with guaranteed access for all (a bit like Mauao), their claim might be more reasonable and acceptable to the general population. We need it to be FAIR.
morepork,I understand
Posted on 28-05-2014 20:05 | By robin bell
your expression of indignity of being called a racist. Problem is I have not, thats not labelled you such.I reserve that for the idiot Crazyhorse and one or two others.Read their comments you'll see what I mean. Settlements currently sit at just over 1billion dollars,over almost 20 years. I'm sure you can do the math,mine tells me thats about $60 per person per annum. Hardly the kind of numbers to prevent development of a nation,remember Maori contribute about 15% of their own settlements. Still, fairs fair eh! More to come if you need it morepork. Robin Bell.
@Robin Bell
Posted on 29-05-2014 13:08 | By morepork
Robin, I don't mind being called a racist (it simply isn't true, so why would I care?). I DO mind the greed being exhibited by some people (brown and white) under the guise of past injustice. I don't believe your figure of $1 billion; the South Island forests alone were around a third of that, before we look at fisheries and all the thousands of other claims. But the amount really doesn't matter. The FACT is that it has been "more than adequate" to right past wrongs and show goodwill for a combined future. Imagine if this money had gone into schools, medical care, support for R & D. There is no doubt that (along with the ChCh earthquake) our growth has been stunted by it. It's time to stop, and this request should be denied. I notice you didn't respond to my suggestion that the revenue be waived.
15% OF WHAT BELL
Posted on 29-05-2014 18:45 | By Jeromy Murkin
n 2004, ACT Party members were howled down for releasing a study that showed Maori received $7-billion in government benefits every year while contributing only $2-billion in tax. That report took into account all social spending found that taxpayer spending on people who identified as Maori. That figure is likely to have increased, not diminished. And in 2011, Te Puni Kokiri advised Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples that yes indeed welfare payments to Maori exceed the tax contribution that Maori make to the economy. A $5billion shortfall every year is something that needs to be addressed…What does it cost the average tax payer in extras to cover the shortfall year in year out. What are the average NZers missing out on because maori don't contribute…$5 billion towards health and education would be a good start… Sad really
Yes Jerory
Posted on 30-05-2014 23:12 | By Crash test dummies
That is true, the number don't lie.
Jeromy, you don't understand your figures
Posted on 30-05-2014 23:44 | By Peter Dey
Jeremy, the reason that Maori receive more from taxes than they provide is because far More Maori are on lower incomes. All people on lower incomes receive more in benefits than they pay in tax. This is because society recognises that the rich could not run the country on their own. We all contribute and we all deserve a fair share of the nation's prosperity.
figure this
Posted on 31-05-2014 10:00 | By Jeromy Murkin
Maori companies pay 17.5% tax, [while] others pay 28%.” big maori business do not pay any tax just gst I have read all bout that from something posted in a previos comment. bell said maori contribute 15% percent of money to there own claims, I am pointing out he like you make alot of stuff up, bloody embarrasing I reckon. Read this from the government. http://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2007/0097/latest/DLM1517470.html I also learned maori have another special board, this time in the tax department called (Maori authority) read about it on the site above, think crazy might have missed this one, not for long though.
koha at kohanga
Posted on 31-05-2014 10:20 | By Jeromy Murkin
maybe this is the 15% bell meant ha ha. $50,000 koha donation made by the Kohanga Reo National Trust Board looks to have avoided any tax liabilities. The payment made to a party related to the trust board was made in December 2012 and was not included in related party transaction disclosures in the trust's annual report.
Nothing
Posted on 31-05-2014 11:28 | By robin bell
G.S.T.is 15% of every retail dollar spent.People on government assistance or low wages spend every dollar just to survive. Maori big business that are classified charitable trusts don't pay tax on profit,just like the thousands of non Maori ones.They have,(by law) to distribute monies to education,health or other approved social assistance. The employees of such trusts pay P.A.Y.E. AND 15%GST on spending,like everyone else they pay tax on interest earned.Thats how they contribute dummy. You and your ego's crazy and Baker support the A.C.T. overview of life,in 2004 led by "rorting" Rodney Hide ably backed up by David Garrett law and order spokesman,guilty of stealing a dead infants identity. If I was you jerry,I would sack crazy and Ross,clear your head and join the real world. Robin Bell.
@Peter Dey
Posted on 31-05-2014 12:43 | By morepork
I liked your post, Peter, and the attitude behind it. If we are to have a society we can all be proud to live in, of course we must provide assistance to the needy. It is morally wrong for kids to go to bed hungry in an affluent society. It happens because too many parents prefer gambling, booze, and indolence and would rather be part of the problem than part of the solution. It is not fair to target only Maori; it applies to all. My concern is not about the $5 billion a year; that one is a separate issue. In this thread it is about vested interests (the local Hapu, here) seeking to acquire assets that rightly belong to all of us, or have been acquired legitimately. If it's about "mana", then waive the rights to income and guarantee access to all. Make it FAIR!
G.S.T.is 15% toward claims
Posted on 31-05-2014 18:13 | By Jeromy Murkin
Same people who supply your history do your accounting as well,ha ha.
morepork,
Posted on 01-06-2014 09:17 | By robin bell
I too enjoy Peters comments.He is a true gentleman,unlike some.You too seem like a reasonable person.Please google the Office of Treaty Settlements for a true figure on totals to date. The unreasonable reaction to what is simply a request from Ngai Tamarawaho to develop a largely undeveloped area,seems to me typical of the inability of some to compromise and express goodwill. The "notion" that they will "charge" for entrance to a commemorative and sacred area,is indicative of the lack of understanding between our two founding cultures. They say "ignorance is bliss" sadly morepork nothing could be further from the truth. The indolent people you refer to,exist because of the imbalance in our society,only education and understanding can fix that.Robin Bell.
@Robin Bell
Posted on 03-06-2014 18:01 | By morepork
Robin, of all the "vested interests" in this scenario the Office of Treaty Settlements would be the MOST vested. I don't care about the amounts (happy to let that go), and it isn't all by way directly of Treaty settlement. Please explain to me why a site where more of MY (tau)iwi died than Maori, suddenly should be handed over to Maori. What about MY mana? Is it worth nothing in modern NZ? I repeat, NOBODY posting here has even mentioned the Europeans who were slaughtered. Is there NO respect for them, as well as the Maori who died? And it isn't about "charging for access to the site". The land itself is very valuable, not to mention the revenues that would accrue from Mitre 10 and the Bowling Club rentals. Undeveloped land? I hardly think so. There is ALREADY an adequate memorial there. Let the dead RIP.
morepork,
Posted on 03-06-2014 20:35 | By robin bell
so no goodwill then. You reject factual information in favour of speculative garbage by conspiracy "theorists".Your reference to Mitre 10 puts you firmly in their camp. It is little wonder you wish to let the amount of settlement money go, having no proof of your claims. In explanation of your query why none of your Iwi are represented.Your wrong yet again,take a look at the current site,the fist pou is a representation of a British soldier.Your Mana is intact,you represent the majority,you have all the power,you have no goodwill.The Queen apologised on your behalf,for the outragious behaviour of your iwi.Now its your turn,or not. Robin Bell
past and present
Posted on 04-06-2014 13:13 | By morepork
This thread has made me think about what each of us is responsible for. Wrongs committed throughout history's countless wars have to be dealt with at the time. It is stupid to expect a generation who weren't born then to be punished for what their ancestors did. Can I hold today's Japanese tourists responsible for what their grandfathers did to Kiwi POWs in the 1940s? I don't think so. What hope for the world if hatred and malice are deliberately passed on down generations? Robin Bell talks easily about goodwill (although he shows very little of it), but if any of us are to have a future, we need to be responsible for the things we CAN be responsible for, do what we can to fix them, and let the rest go. I heard people in Ireland railing against the British (now) because of what Cromwell did. It's sad.
morepork,
Posted on 05-06-2014 10:45 | By robin bell
The current generations of N.Z.rs including Maori,are in no way responsible for the sins of their ancestors. The major difference being is that we benifit from ours directly or indirectly.Maori on the other hand were marginalised by the process. Now they are included and you don't like it one bit. Professor Giselle Byrnes at Waikato,points out,quote " The politics of settlement is all about tempering justice with a concern for civil order and peace.It involves seeking a practical compromise,acknowledging that the present comes from the past, and more significantly remnants of the past survive into the present. That is goodwill morepork, and I have heaps of it. Do you? Robin Bell.
@Robin Bell
Posted on 05-06-2014 15:27 | By morepork
I did respond to you about "goodwill" but it hasn't appeared. Your quote from Giselle Byrnes has nothing to do with goodwill; it is plain common sense, and she is right. You can't begin to know what I like or dislike but the inclusion of Maori (indeed, ALL ethicities) into the future of NZ is something I welcome gladly. That doesn't mean I will roll over and say:"Take whatever you want, on whatever pretext you want, for as long as you want." It means: "I will respect your culture and customs and you will respect mine. We will move forward together in fairness and kindness with MUTUAL goodwill". (The same deal for ALL ethnicities in modern NZ). This Hapu claim is unreasonable and unfair, so I'm against it. It has nothing to do with disrespect, racism, or seeking to keep Maori down. It is about being FAIR.
Goodwill
Posted on 05-06-2014 16:56 | By YOGI BEAR
I am afraid that has long since gone missing in action Robin.
morepork,no compromise
Posted on 05-06-2014 19:26 | By robin bell
means no goodwill.You try very hard to appear reasonable however you fall short. You only "welcome" Maori on your terms,forget the past injustice, forget the theft of your land,forget your marginalisation by an overwhelming force. The Hapu claim is very reasonable and fair considering the above,and they were supposedly protected by the treaty. That Maori cannot make claims against private land is the compromise they have accepted,what is your compromise morepork? The Irish people experienced similar treatment from the British pre and post Cromwell.They still go on about it because, like Maori the wounds are still raw. Go ahead and ignore reality morepork,your denialist tendencies will not serve you well. Robin Bell.
GO 4 IT MOREPORK
Posted on 05-06-2014 21:37 | By crazyhorse
You have the Pom flustered, him and Dey can't handle intelligence, truth, or facts, hammer it home, NZ for everyone everyone equal, go for it.
@Robin Bell
Posted on 06-06-2014 16:00 | By morepork
You seem to equate compromise and goodwill with simply surrendering. And I'm getting tired of you ascribing attributes to me when you don't even know me. I don't "try hard to be reasonable"; it comes naturally. Unlike some here, I have no drum to beat and my posts here have consistently expressed my concern about fairness to ALL parties. I was brought up that way; it is part of being a Kiwi. You have never responded to my suggestion regarding the Hapu waiving all revenue so the claim can be seen to be about "mana" and not "money". You say they are owed that and more for past injustices; I responded to that at length. There has been more than enough reparation, to the point where it has held back our national development. My conscience is clear, I stated my case and listened to yours. Yours is weaker.
@crazyhorse
Posted on 06-06-2014 16:25 | By morepork
While I appreciate your support,I have no intention of "going for it" :-) Robin Bell has no case, and the Hapu have a weak one. The Mauao case was fair and about "mana"; I was glad to see it returned. This claim smacks of opportunism and is hard to sustain, when 4 times as many Europeans died there as Maori. It SHOULD be a sacred site, respecting the sacrifice made by ALL who fought there. And, for the most part, it is. Life has moved on. If the Hapu have genuine concern over lost graves and maintenance of the site, that can be addressed without transfer of ownership (and revenues). It is a peaceful site and the dead there should be left in peace. I don't think any minds will be changed about this and I've said everything I wanted to, so no more from me.
Enuff is Enuff
Posted on 12-06-2014 16:52 | By Enuff
The general public are finally realising the truth, it is the same people who are claiming ownership here that are splitting the country. Why they think they need their own political party is blatant racism, its a way of getting into parliament & positions of power to perform these land grabs, they simply wouldnt get in otherwise. Can you imagine the uproar if the Asian party or Indian party started up!!! What other country stands for this... its about unity & fairness people & NZ is only going backwards on this. Nothing against any race at all, but every race would agree that it has to be fair for everybody.
Enuff scaremongering
Posted on 13-06-2014 06:56 | By Te Ponui
I disagree Enuff. The general public - apart from sensationalist media and a few extremists - would rather see all the damage rectified. You and your fellow trolls would like to split the country, but we all know your ideals are far worse than the mature stance recent governments hold regarding these issues. Other countries are irrelavant. Racism is in the eye of the beholder. I do not see it in any group. Nor do I see a problem with an Asian or Indian party. Your suggestion that it would cause an uproar and maybe should not be, I would view as racial discrimination and question your inter racial outlook.
We are investigating
Posted on 13-06-2014 09:04 | By Jeromy Murkin
ways to get that land back. (did everyone miss this)(Treaty claims cannot be made against private land. 'But we disagree with that,!!!!” says Peri. the people going after this land believe private land is up for grabs now, all under the treaty, the treaty is a living breathing document is this the latest version, pathetic.and council promotes this apart from a few who are standing up to be counted.
The land in question,
Posted on 13-06-2014 17:20 | By robin bell
is not private land.It is Council administered,zoned Reserve.Get it right J Murkin,if unsure of yourself,ask your mate C,horse Robin Bell
The big lie lives on.
Posted on 13-06-2014 21:49 | By crazyhorse
The myth that Maori land was stolen, or 'lost” was created for a propaganda stunt in 1973, when Maori sovereignty group Nga Tamatoa protested at the Waitangi Day ceremony by wearing black armbands to mourn the loss the entire land area of New Zealand of 'Maori land". Grievance specialists have repeated the myth ever since. The big lie lives on. In Maori Land Tenure: Studies of a Changing Institution (1977), Sir Hugh Kawharu blatantly sets out to fabricate a ‘universally recognised' body of Maori property rights pre-dating the Treaty of Waitangi. By implication, these were rudely subsumed by white-settler governments, who substituted their own Eurocentric notions of property ownership. This now widely accepted thesis is designed to fudge or remove the fact that 'Customary Title” is in practical terms no title at all.
Customary Title,
Posted on 16-06-2014 10:35 | By robin bell
was not invented.It is the term used by the United Nations to describe land "used" by indigenous people prior to colonisation.For over 150yrs Maori have engaged the Crown on land issues. To claim it started in 1973 is plain stupid Crazyhoss.The "use it or lose it" mentality of settlers does not overide Customary Title.English law states,Those in occupation of land have Fee Simple and valid title. Sorry crazy your wrong yet again.Robin Bell.
bowling club
Posted on 17-06-2014 16:11 | By rosscoo
Why now? The bowling club was there for years, so why now have they decided to claim. It is the Maori leaders that cause prejudice amongst people by making these claims and taken what hey want at time. If i want land i have to pay. I can't just go up to council and say i want that empty lot.
Bowling Club?
Posted on 19-06-2014 17:01 | By YOGI BEAR
Why do they want that one? Why don't they go and get one of there own, or even better why don't they just join as a member (pay) and go play bowls all together like.
Bowling club
Posted on 20-06-2014 09:14 | By Buddy Mikaere
This whole issue arises because the bowling club lease expires in 2019 (I think) at which time options as to what to do with the land become a consideration. Ngai Tamarawaho is just signalling its interest ahead of time. Inclusion of the bowling club back into the reserve as a whole and space for a new permanent home for the Gate Pa exhibition accessed by a bridge across Cameron Road would be an excellent community use of the land.
Wow
Posted on 20-06-2014 10:25 | By Jeewizz
whose all up for a beer?
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