No absolute version of democracy

Whilst somewhat predictable, the response by R Prince and B Johnson (SunLive, January 5) to my support of Maori wards (SunLive, December 29) is disappointing.

Inference can be a powerful weapon in debate, but I did not accuse R Prince of misrepresenting the views of Dr McDonnell, I simply point out the doctor's views are many and varied.

When expressing his opinion that "it is time to pull back to the centre" perhaps he's right, but where does the centre lie, and who decides? Do we continue to deny Maori interest groups their democratic rights by denying them the opportunity to represent themselves, in order to protect the privilege of the majority, or are we better than that? 

B Johnson claims such representation to be "a subversion of democracy". There is no absolute version of democracy. It is flexible. Our fate in these matters was sealed with the signing of a binding treaty. The use of divisive rhetoric such as apartheid, separatism and now subversion, as applied to possible Maori representation, is surely nothing short of extremism and perhaps desperation.

R Bell, Omanawa (Abridged).

 Correspondence on this thread is now closed.


@ private

Posted on 21-01-2018 20:44 | By waxing

Because they are recognised by all the professional historians, anthropologists sociologists in Genesis

@ waxing

Posted on 21-01-2018 14:54 | By Captain Sensible

Of all the minorities in NZ, why do you think only maori should have special representation? Your sense of entitlement and greed is truly ugly. Besides, these days people can be 1/128 maori yet still identify as maori, so how do you know who is maori and who isn't? Not all maori subscribe to your sense of greed and entitlement.

crazier and crazier

Posted on 21-01-2018 12:04 | By waxing

So, quite simply, please tell me the names of Maori elected in local government in the Western Bay of Plenty. Can't? Therefore Maori remain unrepresented. Cr Lally won't talk about anything he may (or does not) do to consult with Maori. So you and your elitist attitudes maintain hegemony over Maori. Fair?

Wax on Wax off!.

Posted on 19-01-2018 21:02 | By crazyhorse

Well, the only thing that that suggests is that you support/sympathise with very "part" maori who support separatism!.

Divide and conquer,

Posted on 19-01-2018 18:40 | By crazyhorse

The only people wanting to divide the country by race are a small but vocal minority of tribal activists and their supporters, who will stop at nothing less than Maori sovereignty at all levels of government. It is this racist agenda that we all need to stand against.

Really Waxo?

Posted on 19-01-2018 17:18 | By crazyhorse

Ron Marks just like lots of other Maori have been elected on merit, lots of Maori in Labour and national if they don't support separatism I'm sure you will find there are many others, but they don't interest you do they?.

@ crazy

Posted on 19-01-2018 15:09 | By waxing

Well the only thing that that suggests is that you support/sympathise with New Zealand First.

By Ron Marks former Mayor of Carterton

Posted on 19-01-2018 07:01 | By crazyhorse

There are those of us in Maoridom who subscribe to a view that we attain and achieve on merit. We either succeed or we do not on our own abilities Carterton is a conservative rural district yet Carterton elected Georgina Beyer, who was not only Maori but a transsexual as well I did not run on a banner that I am Ngti Kahungunu therefore, I have a right to have a reserved seat and to be the Mayor. I stood on the name of Ron Mark, and people judged me on my merits and elected me.

even more crazy

Posted on 18-01-2018 16:05 | By waxing

crazy, your scaremongering continues to become more and more hysterical. I am happy about contemporary claims since they do ensure Maori are consulted and are not further marginalised. Some of your suggestions about claims are simply fatuous and trouble-making. For anyone genuinely interested in these claims, take a look at Many claims have not been recommended to the Government by the Tribunal.

@ private

Posted on 18-01-2018 15:49 | By waxing

Because they are tangata whenua and the Treaty which gave them rights (not privileges) was signed by the Crown with them. None of this stops them being kiwis. Now I know you don't agree with this. You tell everyone regardless of what any letter is about. But you and your colleagues live in the dark ages and are increasingly becoming irrelevant. And if you want to look at anti-Maori attitudes, just look at crazyhorse's post here.


Posted on 18-01-2018 07:15 | By crazyhorse

There have been over 200 contemporary claims filed with the Waitangi Tribunal. Ngapuhi claimants even talking about lodging a claim for the commercial use of wind.Customary rights to water is another example, but there are many more. Some have failed; others have succeeded, like the water claim. But all of these claims concern the actions of successive governments since 1992 showing that the treaty troughers will always have a fresh trough to feed on, the treaty claims so far will never match what is to come, contemporary claims, wind, water, airwaves, even talking about so-called social injustices, smoking, overweight, can't get a job, it's your fella's fault. Each successive Gov't has ensured the door is opened just a few inches more, and when it is ripped open completely we will see a feeding frenzy that will awake even the most lethargic KIWI!!, but, will it be too late??

race based privileges and greed

Posted on 17-01-2018 18:44 | By Captain Sensible

People who want to be treated equally and also be allowed to have the same race based privileges as maori get are not anti-maori, but anti race based privileges. And your greed is doing everything to keep your ill gotten race based rights and privileges. Why not accept we are also kiwis and should be entitled to the same?

crazier and crazier

Posted on 17-01-2018 15:35 | By waxing

Boy oh boy crazy. If we ever needed prove of just how extreme your anti-Maori views are, you have just provided the evidence. Do you honestly believe that all Maori, or even most, are like what you describe? Have you had anything to do with Maori? Have you visited a marae and talked to kuia and rangatira?


Posted on 16-01-2018 19:18 | By crazyhorse

More pathetic by the day, not a week goes by that there is not another cry about what colonialism has done to someone who in any other country would just be called a loser and bludger, if you smoke P can't be bothered looking after your kids, won't work, you're fat, can't afford a house a car, people don't look up to you and show you the respect you foolishly imagine you should be given because you have scribbled all over your body I have some bad news for you, it's not mine or anybody elses fault, it's yours, sad but true you just aint that special.

Sillier and sillier

Posted on 16-01-2018 15:55 | By waxing

Comments by the usual lot here just get sillier and sillier with attempts to deny the wording of the Treaty Preamble and continuing unsubstantiated emotional claims and exaggeration. I do hope you lot go outside and get some much needed Vitamin D when the sun comes out again.

Treaty and maori rights

Posted on 16-01-2018 14:29 | By Captain Sensible

It amazes me how some people do not understand that when the Treaty was signed, maori had the right, for the first time ever in their lives, to own, buy and sell equally did all New Zealanders. To try to say it gave maori "special rights" is nonsense. Prior to the Treaty, maori never owned any land...they merely used it until killed or chased off it by a bigger tribe. A violent 'law of the jungle' ended in 1840, and maori were grateful for the Treaty as 500 chiefs reiterated in Kohimaramara twenty years later. Thousands of maori slaves were released from their cruel maori 'owners' and they were very grateful! From then, maori could move forward and the huge majority were extremely grateful to live in a safer better world. All well documented in maori and NZ history.

A definition worth considering...

Posted on 15-01-2018 21:56 | By groutby

....the word "Democracy"1.government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.2.a state having such a form of government:The United States and Canada are democracies.3.a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.4.political or social equality; democratic spirit.5.the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.Maybe there's an answer in there....


Posted on 15-01-2018 14:53 | By crazyhorse

The creation of "unelected seats" on a council is just one more example of setting up yet more places at the trough for people whose only merit is a percentage of blood they can call Maori. Why are National and Labour supporting the introduction of an aristocracy into New Zealand? remember, "grievance industry not grievance process!".

@ crazyhorse

Posted on 15-01-2018 14:26 | By MISS ADVENTURE

The issue is that any treaty claim no matter how creative it is will never sate the needs of a minority hell-bent on an "entitlement" absolute mind set. That state of mind is the issue, nothing else limits self determiantion and self betterment than a hand out stretched seeking another to provide all for nicks. The handouts are then not valued and so wasted arrogantly. That si why the troughers are back so regularly, there just isnt ever enough to "be kept in the manner that one wishes to become accustomed.

The treaty troughers motto.

Posted on 14-01-2018 17:50 | By crazyhorse

Treaty claims will never end. For one reason or another past settlement of claims werent good enough. It might just be because we want more now, and were breaking our word, but that doesnt matter because weve got the Treaty, and it says we can do anything. If we want more and more then were entitled to have it and were going to have it, and theres going to be trouble if we dont. Nothing else is justice. And even if at some future time we do decide we wont make another claim, thats not the end of the story, because then the Crown and Maori just move on into a new phase in their relationship. You are never going to escape us, and our desires are insatiable. Land, wealth, power, the works.

@ waxing

Posted on 14-01-2018 17:46 | By Captain Sensible

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Crazyhorse, myself and the others are doing our best to stop the evil race based privileges endorsed by yourself and the Bell and Dey from destroying our already weakened democracy. Your sense of race based entitlement should be an embarrassment to you.

@ totally waxed

Posted on 14-01-2018 17:07 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You say "deprived Maori of their rights and representation", perhaps you would like to refer to previous comments of you mates and co-horts from here. The only reason given for separatist and race based seats on council (obviously same as MP's) as they say, is because even their own people wont vote for them ... so thats why they have to have mandatory seats. This then is not democrary, it then can only be seen as a preference for a very small minority. In the recent past that was looked upon adversely and many a protest followed. Why now has that apparently changed such that it is acceptable? It isnt and never was and never will be.

@ crazyhorse

Posted on 14-01-2018 15:50 | By waxing

In denying race-based representation, you would be happy to continue the hegemony of greedy Pakeha that have for so long deprived Maori of their rights and representation. I for the life of me can't understand what you are so scared about. New Zealand can only benefit from the progress achieved by recognising both voices and working together. The harping negativity of you and Captain "Sensible" is simply a doctrine that will take us backwards.

@ Captain

Posted on 14-01-2018 15:43 | By waxing

I would find your posts amusing if they weren't so sad, since they are always full of language and arguments that are "offensive and disrespectful" to Maori. You live in the only country in the world where Britain's colonial expansion occurred by way of a treaty rather than military conquest. A treaty that recognised Maori as the indigenous people and which guaranteed to preserve their "just rights and property". You choose to side with the settler government that abused the treaty and tried to set up its own hegemony. You are the modern equivalent of the greedy settlers that cannot be trusted to keep their word and will exploit democracy for their own ends. I therefore fully support race-based representation under the Treaty to protect Maori from people like you and to ensure progress can be made towards a society that welcomes and recognises the contribution by Maori.

What it is, crazyhorse,

Posted on 14-01-2018 14:04 | By R. Bell

By all means. Maori are co-founders of this nation. By way of the treaty and following Acts of Parliament they have the DEMOCRATIC right to representation, by Maori sanctioned representatives, for Maori interests. History has shown that non Maori cannot be trusted to represent Maori interests, without bias. It is a national disgrace. Democracy evolves, it is not fixed. The lack of recognition of these facts, cost this nation billions p.a. in remediation of damage caused by resentment and despondency. Wake up .... Robin Bell.

Captain, the greed is not paying full compensation

Posted on 14-01-2018 11:51 | By Peter Dey

Captain, governments have decided, that even though Treaty settlements are justified, that Pakeha taxpayers would not accept full compensation. So Treaty settlements have paid out less than 10 per cent compensation. That is governments accepting greed on the part of Pakeha taxpayers. Maori accepting 10 per cent compensation is not greed. It is goodwill.

Crazyhorse, general elections have race based representation

Posted on 14-01-2018 11:36 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, every political party list at general elections is carefully balanced to represent a range of racial groups. This is based on the belief that as a society we respect the existence of different racial groups, and we want minority groups represented in parliament. Race-based representation is alive and well, and respected. Your beliefs are too narrow.

Captain, the Treaty gives Maori special property rights

Posted on 14-01-2018 11:31 | By Peter Dey

Captain, the Treaty granted Maori tribes special property rights which still apply. This does not give individual Maori special individual rights but it is an historical fact which you do not seem to accept. It is not greedy for Maori rights to be recognised. Nobody accuses wealthy people of greed if they are not greedy. You provide no evidence that Maori are greedy.


Posted on 14-01-2018 08:46 | By crazyhorse

"wards and councillors on the basis of ones ancestry.Lets call it for what it is. Race-based representation, which has no place in any modern democracy.

why the greed?

Posted on 12-01-2018 16:24 | By Captain Sensible

Maori are part of the human race...and the human race decides democracy. Maori are no more special or unique or deserving or 'equal' than anyone else. Expecting more in the form of race based entitlements /privileges, is greedy, offensive and disrespectful to non-maori.

@ R. Bell

Posted on 12-01-2018 14:24 | By Captain Sensible

Maori are part of the human race...and the human race decides democracy. Maori are no more special or unique or deserving or 'equal' than anyone else. Expecting more in the form of race based entitlements /privileges, is greedy, offensive and disrespectful to non-maori.

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