Co-governance. It's another new word that's crept into our vocabulary, which as far as I am concerned is all fine as long as Maori get themselves elected by the people in the same way everyone else in this country does.
Once again the New Zealand taxpayer has to fund these self-appointed positions on our councils by Maori to push their point of view only on what suits them.
These special privileges, handed out for a minority group and they call it co-governance, to me is Apartheid by another name.
Now I read Tauranga City Mayor Stuart Crosby thinks maybe he should be informing the wider public of how it all works.
All fine after the event, especially as he is supposed to be working for all of us, and we the public who pay for it all. He even says, quote: 'there is little evidence of connecting to the wider community on these really important issues that are going to impact on them all”.
It's like council deciding on if they want to give local Maori the Mauao Reserve ownership. Funny how it's nothing to do with 85 per cent of the people.
Why? Typical, when a few iwi lived nearby 180 years ago it would have been wast scrub land not in any way productive or giving any monetary return in anyway.
But now after all New Zealanders have paid for and developed the land, and it looks like a cash cow, they're asking for ownership.
And they wonder why we think they're a greedy lot.
Once again no matter who lives here - beaches, reserves, parks, state forests - all such areas should be left as Crown land which new Zealand taxpayer fund to look after these special public areas.
Why should we give it to Maori who still expect all New Zealand taxpayers to fund the up-keep of these areas anyway. Doesn't seem very fair from where I am standing. Again, what happened to democracy?
C Humphreys, Katikati.
258 comments
Correct
Posted on 13-09-2013 11:26 | By Captain Sensible
As usual C Humphreys, you are factual and correct.
Be thankful
Posted on 13-09-2013 16:09 | By Te Ponui
Be thankful you are given further priveleges. Is it not the right of any landowner to deny or allow access to that land? Cgovernance is good for us all so you should show some gratitude for Maori generosity.
Humphreys again
Posted on 13-09-2013 19:59 | By robin bell
You are bereft of any common sense and ability to change.You know full well you speak with a "forked tongue"Democracy is an ever evolving form of Government that N.Z. has yet to come to terms with.Remember Maori have a right to co-governance.Repeat 10 times and you will understand.Ask the Cap'n he'll help.Robin Bell.
@ Robin Bell
Posted on 13-09-2013 21:30 | By Captain Sensible
Where in the treaty does it mention co-governance? Oh that's right, it doesn't. Greedy maori know that rewriting history and telling lies often enough, is usually enough to get whatever they want from a spineless bunch of oxygen thieves that masquerade as politicians.
Riddles
Posted on 14-09-2013 09:07 | By robin bell
As usual Cap,n you talk in riddles.The Treaty is a Partnership.Partners share,Co-governance does not mean equal governance,but then you know this.What are you frightened of Cap'n?Or is it just prejudice.Robin Bell.
@ Robin Bell
Posted on 14-09-2013 10:18 | By Captain Sensible
The Treaty was never a partnership until some deluded judge said in his opinion it was, when all the signatories were long dead. Unless Robin can show us where it says in the Treaty the word "partnership"? BTW, just a thought but not all partnerships are equal. If I have a few hundred shares in a company I am not an equal partner.
More Riddles from the Cap'n
Posted on 14-09-2013 13:17 | By robin bell
The Treaty was always a partnership.The "Fact"that it was never viewed that way by the deluded majority,has finally been addressed.The Treaty does not have to specify partnership.It is of itself a contract and therefore a PARTNERSHIP.As I said but you ignored,co-governance does not necessarily mean equal governance.As usual your analogy is far to simplistic. Robin Bell.
What Planet Are You On?
Posted on 14-09-2013 16:55 | By AllBlacksFan
Humphreys - You mention a number of times the rights of 'New Zealand Taxpayers'. What about those New Zealand taxpayers of Maori descent who want their world views and values represented in their country where they too pay taxes? Or do you just operate on the narrow minded mindset that majority rules and to hell with you if you dare to think and live differently to the majority culture? How do you propose to ensure that Maori have fair representation in the governance of this country - after all, isn't that what democracy is all about? In answer to your original question I daresay that democracy has in fact been lost amid the ignorant opinions of those such as yours who still seem to believe that Maori should just become like Pakeha and all our problems will be solved. Democracy will be found when we open our minds!
only in racist NZ
Posted on 14-09-2013 17:59 | By Captain Sensible
No Robin, just think for a moment. The Great British Empire in 1840 did not go into partnerships with primitive cannibals. That's why the term "partnership" was not in the treaty, and the chiefs who signed it understood what they were signing perfectly well. Where else apart from PC'ville, NZ, could a treaty be reinterpreted 160 years after signing and the majority of the population become second class citizens, separatism and apartheid rear their heads and $40 billion be dished out to racists?
Ieuan
Posted on 14-09-2013 19:21 | By Ieuan
Why are we not all just New Zealanders, when I see a Maori Ski Team, how much Maori in those fellas, about one-tenth, same with the dreadful Margaret Mutu who calls herself Maori, she is less than 25% Maori, let's just be Kiwis with no special rights and forget the nonsense going on. Maori were never in partnership. they wanted the treaty to stop their neighbouring tribes from murdering them, they were savage back then as the haka still shows us today
The Great British Empire Cap'n
Posted on 14-09-2013 20:07 | By robin bell
Lived by rules honed over centuries.Invasion,Intimidation, provocation,coercion,leading to retaliation then confiscation.They entered Treaties (Partnerships)with Indigenous groups around the world.You have no idea what was in the minds of Maori Your prejudice blinds you.No Pakeha in this country is a second class citizen.As usual you talk rubbish.Perhaps you are just playing childish games again.Robin Bell.
pre european utopia?
Posted on 14-09-2013 20:11 | By Captain Sensible
Pre European maori democracy = if I am stronger than you, I will kill or eat you. Do you part maori racists really want to revert to that?
facts are facts
Posted on 14-09-2013 22:33 | By Captain Sensible
Every non-maori in NZ is a second class citizen because we are denied privileges, handouts, favours etc due to our race...meanwhile the part maori are beneficiaries of all race based laws, privileges, handouts etc. That makes non-maori second class. Fact.
@ Robin Bell
Posted on 14-09-2013 22:35 | By Captain Sensible
Treaties are not partnerships. never have been and never will be. A treaty is an agreement, not a partnership. What dictionary are you using???
Singing the same old song Cap'n
Posted on 15-09-2013 11:34 | By robin bell
Lets get things right now.You claim Maori are not entitled to co-governance.Now you are claiming that those who have (by definition)total governance 85% majority,are underpriveliged,second class citizens.Don't you think there may be just a wee contradiction there?If you are indeed so badly done by Cap'n perhaps you should consider hopping on board and go sailing.Robin Bell.
Ieuan
Posted on 15-09-2013 11:35 | By Ieuan
All Black Fan wants to ensure that Maori all have fair representation in this country but to have the treaty enshrined into every statute in NZ law will in fact be apartheid. It was a document for the day, it gave Maori what they wanted, safety from their murdering cannabilistic neighbours. Why are we still having separate Maori MP's, teams, medical facilities, schools, nurses unions for Maori. We all want the same thing - a country that functions well for all. Imagine if the French or Belgian had colonised NZ, they would have been praying that the mellow British had come instead. This creeping apartheid must be stopped. Ditch all separatist groups, unions, teams, be Kiwis instead of being divided into racial groups, after all most Maori have heaps more European blood than Maori. Continue to honour your Maori culture but nationally just be a citizen of NZ please!
CO-GOVERNANCE
Posted on 15-09-2013 13:31 | By crazyhorse
Co - governance is the latest way for underachieving and gutless council and politicians to give away the rights of the average kiwi, Crosby is already talking of educating the tax payers of Tauranga to the need for it, the Tauranga harbour is already in co- governance with 3 of the local iwi, look what has happened in Auckland, the super council pays millions of dollars a year to an unelected maori faction in council, for what you may ask???this can all be avoided, think about who you vote for and hold them accountable, that's the problem with gov't at all levels zero accountability, look what's happening all over our country and all the politicians do is shrug their shoulders, let them know you've had enough!!you do have a vote.
the maori way pre treaty
Posted on 15-09-2013 15:30 | By Captain Sensible
Robin Bell says "Invasion,Intimidation, provocation,coercion,leading to retaliation then confiscation". I thought he was referring to the maori way pre Treaty! Just forgot to mention cannibalism!!!
Gravy train
Posted on 15-09-2013 15:34 | By Captain Sensible
Ha Robin Bell says that I have no idea what was in the minds of maori in 1840. There is transcriptions and log books, letters, speeches etc to suggest that I am right. Meanwhile, Robin apparently has special powers to know what was in their minds in the 1840s. Me thinks you are making it up to suit the gravy train!!
DON'T MENTION THE WAR
Posted on 15-09-2013 20:53 | By crazyhorse
Cannibalism and slavery does not exist In Deys and Bells history of NZ,the people they talk of are only people on paper (Now), they are a gentle caring people who were at one with nature and welcomed any other iwi with open hangi, oops sorry open arms, im sure any one getting eaten was a genuine mistake!!!!
The Comic Opera continues
Posted on 16-09-2013 09:07 | By robin bell
The current stars of the comic soap opera "Rust never Sleeps"Rant and Rave continue their vitriolic attack on Maori rights.Rant also known as the Cap'n in between insults and racist inuendo claims the Treaty of Waitangi is not a partnership.A partnership is defined as a Joint concern,Joint interests,Joint ownership.Not equal but JOINT.When the Treaty was signed Maori were garanteed their land,forests,fisheries etc.Therefore a partnership exists.Justice Cook knew this ,now its LAW.Its the "Joint" that deals to you Cap'n Tough.Don't go copying my comment now Cap'n. Robin Bell.
Majority Rules Sucks
Posted on 16-09-2013 13:58 | By The Tomahawk Kid
@ AllBlacksFan: If I were Maori, I would feel ashamed to think that In a democracy I was given special privileges due to the COLOUR OF MY SKIN - NOT the content of my head or the quality of my thinking! (and by the way I do not like democracy - it is the counting of HEADS - not their content, and it is immoral because it denies the rights of the minority, and I believe even minorities have rights - but that is a different story). "The narrow minded mindset of MAJORITY RULES" is the game you all insist on playing (It sucks doesnt it?) Its the system where you all get to vote on how much of other peoples rights and property you can get your hands on.
@Tomo
Posted on 17-09-2013 20:51 | By Te Ponui
I am proud to be Maori and proud that my country is mature enough to acknowledge our mutual heritage. And it's not the color of my skin that allows this, but a process of developing a fair and just society. The same process that is available to all peoples who are lucky enough to live here. That some feel they are hard done by is part of developing that fair and just society. Their job - and it seems yours - is to make their concerns heard. But this cannot be at the expense of others rights. In other words mate, suck it up!!
@ Te Ponui
Posted on 18-09-2013 07:36 | By Captain Sensible
So you therefore agree that handouts, privileges and discriminating laws that favour a particular part race (as long as it's yours!) is just fine. How would you feel if all these privileges were actually discriminating against part maori? As a non-maori, we are racially discriminated against every day. While you benefit from racism, 85% of NZ is discriminated against and I don't like it. Everyone is equal....except in NZ.
Te Ponui
Posted on 18-09-2013 09:34 | By robin bell
You appear to be the product of our new enlightened society.I'm Pakeha who embraces both your culture and my own,both are powerful your pride is understanable.Sadly people like "Tomo"see only their own prejudice.If you read between the lines of Tomo's comment you will see the elitist streak that runs through "some" of my people.Your final comment sums it all up for these people."Suck it up" Robin Bell.
A whisperrrr in the cap'ns earrrr,
Posted on 18-09-2013 14:37 | By robin bell
Just a little advice you badly need.When you Insult and denigrate,the effect is to make you and your kind look stupid.It no doubt makes you feel important but the bad news is your not.For you there is no good news.Any effect you may think it has on Maori is in a word "ZILCH".By the way,your reference to transcripts,log books,letters and speeches were all made or recorded by Pakeha.If they were anything like you,what value do they have?Do you want to talk about partnerships Cap'n? Robin Bell.
enlightened?
Posted on 19-09-2013 09:06 | By Captain Sensible
"enlightened society" = society too afraid to question maori lies for fear of being called a racist. Hence maori have been reinventing themselves for years....and mostly getting away with it...until the truly enlightened citizens say "enough", and we have the facts of history on our side.
Wrong again Robin
Posted on 19-09-2013 11:33 | By Captain Sensible
The transcripts etc I refer to were actually made by maori and pakeha in the 1800s. And approx 99% of the transcripts from maori chiefs were full of praise for the new way of life under British rule, as indiscriminate tribal butcherings had become illegal. Maori were now equal with a british citizen. And....there was no mention of partnerships, in fact going by the transcripts from the maori chiefs, maori understood perfectly well there was no partnership. They were happy to be the queens subjects. Sorry these facts are at loggerheads with your make-believe.
Still bitter and Twisted Cap'n
Posted on 19-09-2013 20:42 | By robin bell
The British undo you again.Whatever their intent the The Treaty was rushed by rank ametuers.Not for the good of Maori as you claim,but to control the greed of colonists and the threat of the French.When signed the British gained sovereignty,Maori retained Tino Rangatiratanga(full and entire control of their lands etc.)When accepting the right to buy land,the Crown recognised this.This amounts to a partnership(Law)Joint Control.Succesive Govn'ts have endorsed this and will continue to do so.The "Prendergast"mindset that you adhere to is dead and buried(well almost)Sorry Cap'n.(NOT)As for your Transcripts etc.perhaps you will present them for us all to peruse.Robin Bell.
CO-GOVERNANCE IS NOT APARTHEID
Posted on 20-09-2013 14:48 | By Peter Dey
Both C.Humphreys and Captain Sensible warn us about apartheid coming to New Zealand. Apartheid is the political control of a racial majority by a racial minority. Anybody who uses the term apartheid, as something that could happen in New Zealand, is ignorantly mudslinging. The 15% of Maori in New Zealand have no way of ever controlling the 85% of non-Maori.
JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY RUBBY
Posted on 20-09-2013 16:12 | By crazyhorse
Just for arguments sake, say know one found NZ, (by miracle not to this day)! We all know that maori had wiped out a lot of their food sources were dying of poor hygiene were eating each other and taking weaker tribes as slaves, now Rubby you tell us all how maori would have faired, how far advanced would they be, and the big question Rubby!, would there be any maori left?, ????? we want to hear the truth now!!!
THE TREATY IS A PARTNERSHIP
Posted on 20-09-2013 16:55 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible should read Wikipedia. A partnership is an arrangement in which parties agree to cooperate to advance their mutual interests. This is what the Treaty of Waitangi is. It does not have to have the word partnership written in it to be a partnership. It just has to be an arrangement to cooperate.
I don't deal in miracles Crazy,
Posted on 21-09-2013 09:56 | By robin bell
but I'll try to answer your hypothetical nonsense.About 300 or so Maori arrived in N.Z. around 1250 A.D.by 1800 they had increased by Pakeha estimate to somewhere between 150,000 and 250,000.This suggests to any reasonable person (not horses) that in spite of your prejudice, they had a dynamic that was working for them.It is indisputable "FACT" that the impact of Pakeha invasion was devastating.Guns,Disease,Land disputes etc.It was generations before Maori truly benefited from the introduction of technology.Your very sad racist attitude is nullified once again by FACT.As for "how Maori would have faired etc.)Who knows!!They were obviously increasing in number,you can't dispute that.You too suffer from "Prendergast"syndrome.I think you will find that you and your kind are heading for the extinction you assumed for Maori.Robin Bell(Rubby).
DYNAMIC
Posted on 21-09-2013 17:50 | By crazyhorse
Your a good sport Rubby I have to give you that, and you answered, more than I can say for Dey, you constantly preach of how badly maori are treated, I was only wondering how maori would have faired left to themselves, nothing I have read even from your own exalted historians show maori as anything but stone age cannibals, also I have not found anything to say the population was growing, just the opposite, i have to ask you Rubby did European colonization bring any positives at all for maori, anything what so ever. And just because I don't agree with you does not make me racist, just fed up!
excuses
Posted on 21-09-2013 20:43 | By Captain Sensible
Maori advanced from stoneage to modern age. There was no partnership. If a treaty was a partnership, don't you think Wikipedia or a dictionary would say so?? Stop making things up to suit your lame excuses.
Hmm
Posted on 21-09-2013 22:20 | By AllBlacksFan
Somebody ought to let all the Maori in prisons, on benefits and living in poverty about all the privileges they are entitled to. And they really should stop trying to express their Maori culture as many are suggesting and just assimilate into the majority 'kiwi' culture. It's a homogonised NZ we want because after all diversity is just far too inconvenient for all of us to deal with.
PARTNERSHIP DEFINITION FOR CAPTAIN SENSIBLE
Posted on 21-09-2013 22:22 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible asked for a dictionary definition of partnership. Wikipedia says that a partnership is an arrangement in which parties agree to cooperate to advance their mutual interests. This makes the Treaty of Waitangi a partnership. Wikipedia does not have to say that a Treaty is a partnership. From this definition it obviously is.
Crazy's firing off
Posted on 22-09-2013 09:54 | By robin bell
Yet again Crazy you mix fact with fiction.Please show me where it is written that the Maori population was decreasing between 1250 and 1800 A.D.I have actually never said Maori are badly treated today.Todays treatment is light years ahead of previous generations.Your 1law4all party would reverse that.I will fight that,because it will ruin N.Z.Your constant reference to pre european Maori is non productive insult and achieves nothing.The Maori of today bear little resemblance to thier ancestors but that does not make them less Maori your percentage game doesn't work.A more positive attitude would be to embrace the fact that Pakeha have finally started to come to terms with the fact that we are a bi-cultural,soon to be multi-cultural nation.You should be proud that you have helped an isolated ethnic group to become a truly DYNAMIC culture,admired worldwide.
TRY SOME NON REVISIONIST READING
Posted on 22-09-2013 12:48 | By crazyhorse
Perhaps you could read (when two cultures meet),or The great divide!they both supply a lot of that information, read and enjoy, LOL! THIS IS GOING TO BE GOOD.
TREATY PARTNERSHIP IS NOT CO-GOVERNANCE
Posted on 22-09-2013 12:50 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible seems to think that a Government/Maori Treaty partnership means that Maori get to half run the Government. A Treaty partnership just means that the Government consults with Maori to avoid injustice before it occurs rather than paying compensation afterwards. Only paranoid Pakeha think that a Treaty partnership would hand over government to Maori.
ex seaman
Posted on 22-09-2013 13:15 | By robin bell
As an ex seaman cap'n you should know what a futile practice that is.To keep making "excuses"for the incompetant British is akin to "P"ing into a force ten gale.Not all Treaties are partnerships,the Treaty of Waitangi most definately is.When your heroes drew up the documents they conceded "joint ownership"to Maori."FACT".That created a partnership.It is now law endorsed by successive Parliaments.When Prendergast tried to nullify the Treaty 1877 he was overuled by the Privy Council.YOUR opinion and that of your mentors,Round,Robinson,Moon etc.is as worthless as your racism.Robin Bell.
not a partnership
Posted on 22-09-2013 14:17 | By Captain Sensible
Again Robin Bell says the word 'partnership' should be in the definition of a treaty......but it isn't. I do not write dictionary definitionss Robin, and nor do you. If it was a partnership, that word would appear in the treaty. It doesn't. It was 130 years after the treaty was signed that some pompous judge said in his opinion it was a partnership. Sorry, but you can not rewrite history...unless you are maori and on the gravy train it seems.
Ieuan
Posted on 22-09-2013 14:59 | By Ieuan
I suspect Crazyhorse, Captain Sensible, Rubby and Peter Dey might all quite like each other were they all to meet. I like AllBlacksFan thoughts on being a homogenised New Zealand because that's what we actually are. Let us all be Kiwis each with out own culture, then Peter and Robin can kapa haka away the day, Crazyhorse can do his own thing, AllBlackFan can watch the All Blacks who are actually homogenised anyway. Why don't you all meet for coffee, but do you have it white or black?
GOVERNMENT MAORI PARTNERSHIP
Posted on 22-09-2013 16:18 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible seems to be in denial over the Treaty partnership. Because of the Treaty of Waitangi the Government and Maori are now trying to cooperate to advance their mutual interests. Governments, both National and Labour, now regard their relationship with Maori as a partnership. Captain Sensible is trying to deny a modern day reality accepted by all Governments.
You must concentrate cap'n
Posted on 22-09-2013 16:49 | By robin bell
If you were just disputing what I say,you may have a chance.Problem is your not.Whether you accept it or not I have never claimed all treaties are partnerships.The Treaty of Waitangi is by virtue of its content.Sovereignty for the British,Land ,Fisheries and forests for Maori.In article 2 the British guaranteed "exclusive and undisturbed possession of the above".The principle of the treaty established a partnership.Like it or lump it.If you and your new party want to change all that,go for it.Personally I don't like your chances.Robin Bell.
POLITICAL PARTIES SUPPORT MAORI PARTNERSHIP
Posted on 22-09-2013 17:00 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible should realise that his arguments against the Government/Maori partnership are not supported by the National, Labour, or Green Political Parties. The probable reason that these parties support a Government/Maori Treaty partnership is that they believe that we are now a bicultural/multicultural society, and that this is a good thing that is no threat to non-Maori at all.
The cap'ns in the Doldrums,
Posted on 22-09-2013 19:31 | By robin bell
Treaty=Contract=a document embodying the "Terms of an agreement.Agreement=legal instrument binding on signatories.The Treaty of Waitangi was and still is an agreement binding on the signatories.The content creates a joint concern,both signatories were and still are bound by the Treaty.The JOINT concern and the Partnership it creates is still in force.Sorry cap'n (not)Check with your local M.P. Most if not all marriage vows do not mention the word partnership cap'n.but I think you will agree marriage is a legal partnership.Robin Bell.
Principles
Posted on 23-09-2013 20:59 | By Captain Sensible
"The Principles Of the treaty" were dreamed up well after all signatories to the treaty were dead, so how do these people know what the principles were? Easy. Make it up to suit maori and if anyone queries it, use the time honoured practice of calling them a racist. It has worked for griever maori for decades.
TREATY PRINCIPLES CONNECT BOTH VERSIONS
Posted on 23-09-2013 21:35 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible is confused over the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. The Treaty of Waitangi Act recognises that the Treaty has English and Maori versions that are different. The Principles of the Treaty are simply what is produced by combining the two Treaty versions. They have been written in modern, relevant terms. Nothing in Treaty Principles has been made up to suit Maori.
Your getting keelhauled cap'n
Posted on 23-09-2013 21:44 | By robin bell
Principle=Ultimate source or origin ie.The treaty.The principles are contained in it.Written,Thats how we know.No one is making anything up,only you and your dumb mates.Reread the bit about your doldrums,eventually it will penetrate.One by one we are knocking off all of your false claims.Robin Bell.
EVERY BODY IS WASTING THIER TIME
Posted on 24-09-2013 17:32 | By crazyhorse
The TOW is one of the most abused historical documents in the world, my favourites are, its a living breathing document, (huh what the !!!, its our written constitution, its our founding document, it makes us partners, and to rub salt into the wound Key gives the fairy god father Finlay the job of treaty settlements under his watch, what a joke, isn't he the lawyer that used to go to court each day uttering I wonder how much I can screw the crown for today, I rest my case.
MUDSLINGING WITHOUT EVIDENCE
Posted on 24-09-2013 17:52 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, saying that Chris Finlayson went to court saying "how much can I screw the Crown for today" is not based on any credible evidence. It is just resentful mudslinging. Chris Finlayson has made an enormous contribution to racial harmony in New Zealand by getting Treaty settlements sorted out in an amazingly short time compared to progress before he took over.
Did you hear him Crazy?
Posted on 24-09-2013 20:40 | By robin bell
I doubt it.When you 'believe'what your conspiracy bloggers say your in real trouble.Finlayson is one of a long list of ministers dealing whith injustice to Maori.I agree you are all wasting your time,but hey! you lot started all this.Remember Crazy whatever your description of the Treaty may be without it and responsible Govn't,people like you and your friends would trample all over Maori.It happened before and you know it,deep down.(Rubby)
CORRECTING MISINFORMATION, CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 24-09-2013 21:13 | By Peter Dey
What Crazyhorse thinks is a waste of time is more like a good opportunity to correct misinformation. A lot of Pakeha think that, because we are a Pakeha controlled country, that Maori are inferior and should be totally ignored in the running of the country. These Pakeha support their prejudice with a great deal of misinformation. Comments here help to correct that misinformation.
CORRECTING MISINFORMATION DEY
Posted on 24-09-2013 23:57 | By crazyhorse
Your like your revisionist historians, just because you say it, makes its truth, and Rubby your a pom, how did you get involved in this my friend, I have heard of born again Christians but not a born again maori. The perfect apologist, from the country that caused all the trouble and signed the TOW, (well that's just dandy!!!).thanks YOGI.
Insults don't work Crazy,
Posted on 25-09-2013 10:20 | By robin bell
I thought you would have learned that by now.No! ah! well.'Revisionist'historians,You must be refering to Moon,Robinson,Round,Wishart,'mad'Mike Butler.Sorry Crazy not a History degree between them.Perhaps you could name a real historian who backs up your racist B/S.As for your mate Yogi,dear oh!dear your getting desperate calling on him.Your mate(Rubby the pom)
PETER IS MUDSLINGING WITHOUT EVIDENCE
Posted on 25-09-2013 11:24 | By YOGI BEAR
Finlayson is tainted goods and has been a significant part of racial disharmony in NZ, his preconceived and predetermined attitudes as displayed repeatedly are a disgrace to NZers.
desperate
Posted on 25-09-2013 12:18 | By Captain Sensible
Peter you have already admitted maori have racist privilege. All your denials are now getting childish and reeks of desperation.
Ieuan
Posted on 25-09-2013 12:39 | By Ieuan
The original letter by C.Humphreys is about the abuse of co-governance which has crept in. That is not part of any treaty settlement and Maori are lining up in large queues for freebies. It is a gift from a prime minister who is bending over backwards to stay in power by appeasing a few radical greedy Maori who have dollar signs where their eyes should be and who now have the country by the short and curlies. Why don't you all address the original letter with its theme of democracy, apartheid and extremely greedy iwi. Incidentally Buddy Mikaere is a "cultural advisor" my friend asked me "What on earth is a cultural advisor." Look at the greedy tribes charging Mighty River Power to STORE water in their lake. Perhaps the tribe could move the water somewhere else and save us all money as we all pay for their greed.
Deydreaming
Posted on 25-09-2013 15:43 | By Captain Sensible
Peter, while you think pakeha education is not for maori, the fact is, for example, 1+1=2 and that is the same for Chinese, Eskimo, Arabic, Tibetan, or any race. Maori had no education, no alphabet, no numeracy, no written language, no schools, no teachers....until the evil pakeha arrived. And the maori chiefs in those days realised that to be successful, maori would need to learn the ways of the pakeha. Those chiefs were far more honest and honourable than the present day mafia that masquerades as iwi.
IEUAN, APARTHEID IS MINORITY POLITICAL CONTROL
Posted on 25-09-2013 17:47 | By Peter Dey
Both C.Humphreys and Ieuan uae the word apartheid as a meaningless insult. Apartheid is the political control of racial majority by a racial minority. Pakeha in New Zealand control Parliament, the Government, police, and the army. There is no way Maori can ever take political control of New Zealand. People who accuse Maori of wanting to do this are in fantasyland.
THE EDUCATION SYSTEM DISADVANTAGES MAORI
Posted on 25-09-2013 17:56 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible continues to refer to pre-European circumstances of Maori. He continues to ignore that what happened hundreds of years ago is no excuse for education professionals to run an education system now that is unfair to Maori students. The Pakeha education system is fine for Maori if it is made more fair, and this is happening.
COMPENSATION, NOT PRIVILEGES, CAPTAIN SENSIBLE
Posted on 25-09-2013 17:59 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible is being misleading in his use of the words race-based privileges. A privilege is usually a benefit that places somebody in a superior position. We do not refer to insurance or ACC payouts as privileges. The term, race-based privileges, is a deliberately misleading use of the word privileges. Measures to compensate for disadvantage are compensation not privileges.
compensation for education and health
Posted on 25-09-2013 18:38 | By crazyhorse
I didn't know maori had health and education systems 170 years ago but, according to Dey they must have cause we are paying compensation, AHH NO!, its not compensation, it's a racist privilege given to a few, 1/4 this a 1/6 that, golly Dey maori are so thin on the ground they have to rope in a Sioux indian to run the (part) maori party, PEOPLE ON PAPER, REMEMBER THE MAORI AFAIRS DOCUMENT DRAWN UP BY MAT RATA?.1974 wasn't it Dey refresh my memory.
You'r Scuppered cap'n
Posted on 25-09-2013 19:26 | By robin bell
All of the ethnicites and nationalities you mention are immigrant to N.Z. since its birth in bi-culturism.They chose to accept the status quo.Maori on the other hand,were already here.The Treaty guarantees thier rights not seperate but different.your correct 1+1=2i.e.Maori+Pakeha=Partnership.Well done cap'n.Robin Bell.
THE MAORI RACE AND PEOPLE EXIST, CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 25-09-2013 21:11 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse makes disparaging comments about Maori, as though intermarriage has somehow removed the Maori race. As Crazyhorse points out, anybody who is descended from a Maori is Maori. So the Maori race still exists and there are about 500,000 of them in New Zealand. They have 22 local marae, and have offices and a number in the phone book. They are here to stay.
CHRIS FINLAYSON'S EVIDENCE
Posted on 25-09-2013 21:24 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR is the one who produces no evidence. I pointed out that Chris Finlayson had contributed to racial harmony by completing Treaty settlements far faster than anybody else. That is evidence of his contribution. YOGI BEAR says that Chris Finlayson has been a part of racial disharmony but produces no evidence to back up his claim.
CRAZYHORSE MISUNDERSTANDS ALLOWANCES
Posted on 25-09-2013 21:37 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse talks about compensation for Maori health and education from 170 years ago. That is a misunderstanding that he has made up for himself. He talks about racist privileges, but he should describe these as allowances to compensate Maori for disadvantage from Pakeha run education and health systems.
Deydreamer
Posted on 26-09-2013 06:12 | By Captain Sensible
Remind us of the maori life expectancy pre 1840 and then what it is now. Remind us of maori education and health services available pre 1840 and then tell us what it is now. Then tell us what ceding sovereignty to the queen means.
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 26-09-2013 08:37 | By Captain Sensible
You speak of compensation.....yet never in our history has maori compensated the families of NZ missionaries/settlers, many of whom were women and children, that were butchered and eaten by maori. So why should compensation be a one way street especially as much of the so called grievances are historically incorrect ( eg the so-called Taranaki "holocaust" where nobody was killed!!)? As long as Appeaser General Finlayson has a say, 85% of kiwis will remain second class citizens.
@ Robin Bell
Posted on 26-09-2013 08:43 | By Captain Sensible
There we have it!!! Bell has stated that part-maori are worthy of special racist privileges over all other kiwis. Reason is because he thinks they were here first. So how does this racist logic apply to the Moriori genocide by maori? BTW, still waiting for you to produce a quote from the treaty with the "partnership" word!!!
strategy
Posted on 26-09-2013 09:10 | By Captain Sensible
Arguement strategy of Dey and Bell; Step 1; Ask for evidence Step 2; Ignore presented evidence Step 3' Ask for evidence Step 4; Repeat steps 1,2 & 3
Crazy is as Crazy does.
Posted on 26-09-2013 10:18 | By robin bell
Our favourite horse just loves to insult Maori and anyone else who disagrees with him .Bit childish old chap.What he conveniently forgets is that his own people had no education or healthcare in the early 1800s.Unless you were rich of course.He knows that compensation paid is for stolen land.He knows that monies paid go to the Iwi for the overall benifit of the tribe,not to individuals,FACT.(Rubby the pom)
Ieuan
Posted on 26-09-2013 10:26 | By Ieuan
Peter Dey says "anyone who is descended from a Maori is a Maori" Likewise anyone who is descended from a European is a European, therefore all Maori are actually European as they have more of that heritage in their bloodline than any other bloodline. Gotcha Peter! So let's scrap all the special extras that European Maori get - television/radio stations, scholarships, sports teams, music awards, exemption from paying rates for certain areas of land, papakainga housing is a biggie, no-one ever gave me a free house. We would all then be equal on the starting block of life. Peter, you say "how can this be apartheid" - my Chambers dictionary defines it as "of racial segregation" which is exactly what all this is. Actually I don't mind about your telly/radio stations, just the millions of dollars beng paid out for suspect treaty settlements. Read Twisting the Treaty. I have!
YES COMPENSATION FOR PRIVILEGES, PETER
Posted on 26-09-2013 12:25 | By YOGI BEAR
What else can they be called as the payments are based on false and mischievous created claims via the Waitangi Tribunal, if they were based in fact, truth and reality then Maori would be somewhat more considerate and appreciative on non=Maori and the truth about NZ history to date.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, PRE-1840 IS IRRELEVANT
Posted on 26-09-2013 13:16 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible is refusing to face up to present day reality. Events before 1840 are irrelevant to present day education issues. Justice for Europeans killed by Maori, and Maori genocide against Moriori has been long settled. Captain Sensible has no evidence of false Treaty settlements. All Governments now regard the Treaty as a partnership. Of course pre-1840 evidence is ignored. It was pre-Pakeha Government.
IEUAN, SEGREGATION MEANS LIVING SEPARATELY
Posted on 26-09-2013 13:34 | By Peter Dey
Ieuan, racial segregation under apartheid meant that the white minority forced the black majority to live in their own separate areas. Anybody who applies the word apartheid to present day New Zealand is totally misinformed. Read some more dictionaries.
EUROPEAN MAORI ARE MAORI AND EUROPEAN
Posted on 26-09-2013 13:54 | By Peter Dey
Ieuan, European Maori are Maori and European, so what. Maori have a strong and enduring culture which they want to survive. The New Zealand education system disadvantages Maori students, but is trying to correct this. Assistance measures for Maori are designed to reduce education disadvantage. They are not race based privileges, because they compensate for disadvantage. They are not intended to provide extra advantage.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, MAORI WERE NOT HERE FIRST
Posted on 26-09-2013 14:03 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible throws in the, now refuted, belief that Moriori lived in New Zealand before Maori arrived and that Maori wiped Moriori out. The latest scientific evidence compiled by Janet Wilmshurst, and published by the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, shows clearly that Maori were the first and only settlers in New Zealand about 1250 AD.
Signed twice
Posted on 26-09-2013 16:04 | By bresim
Robin Bell, do you even read your own posts? Why do you insist on signing every one of them, when it's already there?
Pots and Kettles
Posted on 26-09-2013 16:45 | By robin bell
The cap'n wants evidence of land theft but ignores credible historians,opting for amateurs.He wants evidence of Treaty Partnership yet ignores that provided by credible historians,lawers and government.he claims Maori get"special racist priveliges" yet ignores credible evidence on Maori health.How does his racist "logic" ignore his ancestors genocide in France,Ireland,Scotland,The Americas,Africa,India N.Z.etc.As for Taranaki they say no lives lost,but when the men were removed to concentration camps,the women and children were left to starve.To them it was a holocaust.Well done cap,n you should be proud of yourself.Robin Bell.
CRAZY AS RUBBY
Posted on 26-09-2013 17:35 | By crazyhorse
I have never said Europeans had an education system or health system as such back in the good old days of around 1840,but! I am not asking for a privilege based on me being of European descent, I am the same as every maori in NZ, I think you poms call it the Heinz breed, 57 different varieties, its not 170 years ago, to call someone with blonde hair and blue eyes a maori and weep over the revisionist history of how he or she has been treated is a bit, ah,how can I say it? ( A TAD RICH OLD CHAP),! by crazyhorse.
Your wrong Ieuan.
Posted on 26-09-2013 17:54 | By robin bell
And your "logic" is seriously flawed.The United Nations decrees that inter marriage is no barrier to minority ethnicity FACT.You may not like that,but in a word "TOUGH".For many Maori Papakainga is the only way they can get housed.There are no "exemptions" for rates as you claim.Problem is the Pakeha enforced Maori Land Act 1873 makes it virtually impossible for Maori to use thier land as collateral for housing loans.You of course don't consider such things.The effect of that law and others has been disastrous for Maori.Your couldn't care less eh! Ieuan.Many Councils simply find it impossible to collect rates on fragmented land.There is NO racial segregation in N.Z. UNLESS OF COURSE ITS YOUR OWN. Robin Bell.
YOGI BEAR IS CONFUSED ABOUT PRIVILEGE
Posted on 26-09-2013 20:26 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR says that the Waitangi Tribunal supports false claims, but he can produce no evidence to support his statement. There is none. The term race-based privilege is deliberately misleading, because a privilege puts somebody into a superior position. Race-based allowances or assistance for Maori do not put Maori into a superior position. They simply reduce disadvantage from Pakeha controlled education and Government.
CRAZYHORSE AND REVISIONIST HISTORY
Posted on 26-09-2013 20:53 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse accuses professional historians of writing revisionist history as though they are misleading us. In fact professional historians Claudia Orange, James Belich, Michael King, and Judith Binney are totally respected. Everybody who writes history revises what has been written before. Misleading revisionist history is being written by The Great Divide and Twisting the Treaty because their historical stories are contradicted by credible evidence.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE MORIORI WERE NOT HERE FIRST
Posted on 26-09-2013 21:03 | By Peter Dey
The latest scientific evidence compiled by Janet Wilmshurst, and published by the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, shows clearly that Maori were the first and only settlers in New Zealand about 1250 AD. There were no Moriori here when Maori arrived, and Maori did not wipe Moriori out.
IEUAN THERE IS NO SEPARATISM IN NZ
Posted on 26-09-2013 21:32 | By crazyhorse
To have that you would need another race to have, hmm, maybe their own health and education system, their own radio and tv stations, their own housing, sports teams, given unelected members of their race seats in council and gov't institutions, if that was happening here your dictionary would also give you the meaning of APARTHEID because that would not be happening either!!.
Good faith and morality
Posted on 27-09-2013 08:36 | By robin bell
Bresim,I put my name after my comment to emphasise the above.Your friends on the other hand chose to hide behind silly names.Perhaps you could explain to the world the qualities in that.WE'RE WAITING.Robin Bell.
SIGNED TWICE
Posted on 27-09-2013 10:02 | By crazyhorse
Bresin, it called extremist apologist syndrome, Rubby keeps forgetting who he is, hence he has to constantly remind himself.
CRAZYHORSE IS CONFUSED OVER SEPARATISM
Posted on 27-09-2013 10:46 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, separatism is another word being used in a misleading way. Recognising Maori culture with Maori television, schools, sports teams, and members of Councils is not separatism. Separatism would be Maori wanting to live in a separate area with their own funding and Council. Tuhoe possibly want that for the Urewera, but nobody else in New Zealand does.
Crazy Steed
Posted on 27-09-2013 12:42 | By Crash test dummies
Agree mate, no science, fact or truth can refute that. None of it in the real Littlewood treaty anyway.
Peter wilting ....
Posted on 27-09-2013 14:01 | By The Master
Your heading says "CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, MAORI WERE NOT HERE FIRST" at last you have admitted what everyone else already knowns.
CRAZYHORSE AND REVISIONIST HISTORY
Posted on 27-09-2013 15:23 | By crazyhorse
Peter Dey says only his historians are capable of telling the true history of NZ, TOW claims are settled with this history supplied by Salmon, Orange, king, and P Moon, he also says the public can see all matters concerning each claim, only the amount of money awarded and land given, try and find out anything about the history used to settle said claim, the Waitangi tribunal won't let you near it, to dodgy! oops I mean to sensitive, strange, if its the same history they preach what's the problem???.these people have been payed big bucks and given flash jobs, like Orange running Te Papa, (OUR PLACE)yeh rite!, to come up with this history you would think they would be proud as to explain it in detail, maybe not!!!.
Answers please Peter and Robin
Posted on 27-09-2013 16:13 | By Ieuan
Peter, you say that the education system disadvantages Maori - but how? 1 and 1 still = 2, the planets in the solar system are the same no matter what their name, H2O is still the symbol for water and the human body still has the same number of bones regardless of race. How are Maori children disadvantaged by knowledge. I have always considered that children who fail at school are not helped by lackadaisical parents who take no interest in their children's education. Robin, you tell me why papakainga housing is not possible because of the Maori Land Act of 150 years ago. Surely if it was that bad the Maori Party would have tried to repeal that act to help Maori pay for a home on their own land. Also Robin, please note, I am not yelling at you in CAPITAL LETTERS as you are to me!
CRAZYHORSE IS MIGHTY CONFUSED OVER SEPERATISM
Posted on 27-09-2013 16:14 | By crazyhorse
Tuhoe want self rule in the Ureweras, you do agree with that, so a little bit of separatism is ok, as long as they are maori, I would go back and look at that comment, you have opened yourself up for some serious #### in the future about this topic!!.
Crazy never lets us down,
Posted on 27-09-2013 16:21 | By robin bell
Please show us where part or wholely public funded,health providers,education facilities,T.V.and radio stations, housing and sports teams are Maori only.Thats Pakeha banned crazy which is what you infer.The Maori All Blacks are in recognition of Maori rights to represent themselves at national level.There are infinately more unelected Pakeha in the positions you mention,you don't seem to bothered about them Crazy,why is that?Isee your mate jaffa rejects science,fact and truth.Surprise,surprise.(Rubby)
SORRY, MASTER, JUST A TYPING MISTAKE
Posted on 27-09-2013 16:47 | By Peter Dey
The Master should not get all excited. I typed a mistake in my first comment about Moriori. The heading should have been CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, MORIORI WERE NOT HERE FIRST. I corrected the heading to read this a short time later. The comment itself made it clear that the original heading was a typing mistake.
THE MASTER IS STILL CONFUSED
Posted on 27-09-2013 16:54 | By Peter Dey
The Master still believes that there were settlers in New Zealand before Maori arrived. That means that he does not accept the latest scientific evidence of Janet Wilmshurst, published by the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, that shows clearly that Maori were the first settlers here about 1250 AD. What evidence does The Master have that he thinks refutes Janet Wilmshurst?
JAFFA, THE LITTLEWOOD TREATY IS NOT THE REAL TREATY
Posted on 27-09-2013 17:13 | By Peter Dey
JAFFA seems to share the mistaken view of "Twisting the Treaty" about the Littlewood treaty. The official English version of the Treaty of Waitangi was sent by Governor Hobson to Sydney on February 5-6 1840. He authorised only one official English version, and he never used any other. The Littlewood document was simply a draft used to prepare the Maori version of the Treaty.
CRAZYHORSE THE TAURANGA TREATY REPORT HAS 500 PAGES
Posted on 27-09-2013 21:20 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse tells us that if you try and find out anything about the history used to settle a Waitangi Treaty claim, the Waitangi Tribunal won't let you near it. The Waitangi Tribunal Tauranga-Moana Report has 500 pages. Crazyhorse is writing nonsense.
HOW THE EDUCATION SYSTEM DISADVANTAGES MAORI
Posted on 27-09-2013 21:41 | By Peter Dey
Ieuan asks how the education system disadvantages Maori, which statistics clearly show. If the educational professionals knew the answer, they would fix it now. They do not know the answer but they are now trying to find it. One issue is that Pakeha teachers, even though they try not to be biased, teach in a way that is more effective for Pakeha than Maori. There are other similar issues.
maori rugby
Posted on 27-09-2013 22:48 | By Captain Sensible
Ever heard of the 'maori All Blacks' Robin? Now tell us if you have ever heard of any sports teams in NZ that racially discriminate against maori by not allowing them in the team. Did maori also invent rugby?
WHO WRITES NONSENSE
Posted on 28-09-2013 09:21 | By crazyhorse
We have 500 pages for the Tauranga moana report, so your saying I can go and look at all history used for all claims, is that what your saying, maybe we could look at the history used to settle the Tuhoe claim, with all that scorched earth we should have some interesting stuff to look at from the Waitangi tribunal, is it right Tuhoe didn't sign the TOW Dey I can't remember????.
TRUE, ONLY PAKEHA ARE EXCLUDED
Posted on 28-09-2013 09:51 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible, the fact that Pakeha are excluded from Maori sports teams, Maori song contests, and Maori farm contests, while Maori are not excluded from any Pakeha events, does seem unfair. Maori live in two worlds, Maori and Pakeha. Pakeha live in only the Pakeha world. However, complaining about Maori celebrating their racial identity seems like an over-reaction. Are Pakeha really harmed by the actions of 15% of the population? Pakeha still run the country.
Ieuan check it out
Posted on 28-09-2013 10:13 | By robin bell
before you "spout".If you reread my comment "your wrong Ieuan" you will see I did'nt say Papakainga was not possible.If you knew anything of the Maori world (clearly you don't)You would know how disastrous the law refered to has been.Land is now so fragmented it is impossible for anyone to change.That law was imposed on Maori.Papakainga is not free housing.It has to be on land within a certain distance of a Marae.It contributes to the tribe,in confidence,health and finance.You don't care about such things because you are ignorant of them,as are your friends.It is now impossible to change that law,because the land is now is too fragmented.I use capitals for emphasis Ieuan not to upset you.Robin Bell. (sorry Crazy I don't apologise and have never been asked to in over 55yrs.Rubby.)
CRAZYHORSE, THE TUHOE REPORT IS AVAILABLE ONLINE
Posted on 28-09-2013 10:17 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse can read a full summary of the Tuhoe Treaty settlement online, from the Office of Treaty Settlements. There is no attempt to deceive the public in the process. "Encircled Lands" by Judith Binney provides clear evidence that Tuhoe were treated with shameful injustice by the Government. Compensation for Government injustice is totally fair. Tuhoe not signing the Treaty is irrelevant. The Government signed, and they breached their own Treaty.
RUBBY NEVER LETS US DOWN
Posted on 28-09-2013 10:45 | By crazyhorse
RUBBY SAYS (Please show us where part or wholely public funded,health providers,education facilities,T.V.and radio stations, housing and sports teams are Maori only)! IF THEY ARE NOT MAORI ONLY WHY HAVE THEM??,we have a public system for all you have noted here, if maori can use the public systems and non maori use systems funded for maori, why the need for 2 (separate) systems in NZ???.oh and maybe ask that non maori childrens author how she went trying to enter her work in the maori national library awards, and you call me racist, how sad.
Crazy asks why
Posted on 28-09-2013 17:09 | By robin bell
do we need two systems.Fact is we don't,we simply have some initiatives that target and encourage Maori.This annoys Crazy and his mates because they believe Maori should relinquish thier rights to be Maori and become blended Pakeha.It aint never gonna happen Crazy,believe me I know.Nor should it,name any other ethnic group in the world that would agree to that.You can't.There are no losers,we are all winners.(Except racists of course)Cheer up Crazy,Judith Collins has just announced Child and Youth crime down 45% Yeah!! its starting to work.(Rubby)
Robin still doesn't get it
Posted on 28-09-2013 20:17 | By Captain Sensible
Robin Bell still thinks maori exist when we all know that most maori are more non-maori than maori. Very very few would be more than 50%. Yes that's an opinion, but I know I must be close to the mark when the definition was changed to define a maori as anyone who thinks/wants to be a maori.
MAORI ONLY
Posted on 28-09-2013 21:27 | By crazyhorse
Sorry Rubby just pulling your chain, they are maori privileges that we are talking about, I used the case of Sharon Holt the childrens writer for an example, you said nothing about the fact she was excluded from entering the maori library awards, your like Dey mate, a little bit of separatism is fine as is racism if its maori committing it.
DEY, IS ALAN DUFF WRONG?
Posted on 29-09-2013 11:01 | By Ieuan
Peter, about the education system failing Maori. Alan Duff said "Maori do not strive for success and they lack a work ethic." His children don't go to a Maori school. Perhaps Maori do not have to concern themselves these days with the struggle to survive as in pre-European Maori times. There is always a welfare benefit to fall back on. With a choice I doubt any Maori would wish to return to the days before colonisation, so do not blame us as they lived short harsh lives. Do they read to their children to assist in concentration? There has to be a reason and doesn't it seem likely that Alan Duff is correct when he says "education is the key to success." Inertia in pushing their children to succeed may be the reason for their failures. Problem - how to fix the lazy sods who horrendously fail their children.
ROBIN, ABOUT THAT FREE HOUSING
Posted on 29-09-2013 11:53 | By Ieuan
About the "free" housing that is apparently not free after all. Is it free if it is within a certain distance of a marae? John Key GAVE over $12 million this year for Maori-only housing, was that for this papakainga housing? If so,it IS free even if under conditions such as being within the recommended distance from a marae. I learned about all this from Bob Clarkson's angry outburst. I have never been offered any free housing but then I am not part-Maori which is the criteria. If the housing IS FREE if within a certain distance of a marae, then this IS special privilege for Maori-only as a house is the costliest item we pay for, unless of course you have a smidgen of the bloodline that opens the bank doors! I just know you are going to begin your reply with "Ieuan, you are wrong....!" As always!!
To a mouse.By Rabbie Burns.
Posted on 29-09-2013 11:54 | By robin bell
"The best laid plans of mice and men."Oh! dear me,cap'n what a mess you've got yourself into.You now claim Maori don't exist,this after spending months rubbishing them "up hill and down dale"Blindly exercising your racisism,quoting nonsensical rubbish in the vain hope that a few poor souls will agree with you.Your campaign is in tatters.Time to up anchor and sail away.Robin Bell.
IEUAN, ALAN DUFF IS NOT WRONG
Posted on 29-09-2013 11:54 | By Peter Dey
I believe that Alan Duff is correct in saying that the faults of parents contribute to the education failure of students. I am simply making two points. The education professionals know this, so they have a responsibility to compensate for it. Fair-minded people know this, so they accept that allowances for Maori students are fair compensation to solve a problem, and not special privileges.
CRAZYHORSE STILL GETS RACISM AND SEPARATISM WRONG
Posted on 29-09-2013 12:08 | By Peter Dey
Ordinary people think that racism and separatism are wrong, because they cause inter-racial anger and destroy racial harmony. That is why Crazyhorse is playing a clever game by misusing these words. Recognition of Maori culture and the wishes of Maori is not separatism or racism. Determining things racially is not racism.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES
Posted on 29-09-2013 12:19 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible does not believe that the Maori race exists because of reduced Maori ancestry. However his eyes tell him that we have marae all over the country, people speaking Maori on marae and on television, and in Parliament, Maori taking part in kapa haka and Maori language competitions, and people running Maori schools and universities. The Maori race exists. Crazyhorse is denying his own eyes.
APOLOGIES CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 29-09-2013 12:25 | By Peter Dey
Apologies Crazyhorse. I think I just accused you of saying that the Maori race does not exist, when my comments were meant to be for Captain Sensible. However, if you also do not believe that the Maori race exists, then we are all good.
Breaking the Cycle, Ieuan.
Posted on 29-09-2013 12:53 | By robin bell
In answer to the problem-"how to fix the lazy sods who horrendously fail their children"Its happening.All of the initiatives you and others want to reverse are working towards just that.Child and Youth crime down 45%.Maori achievement up massively in spite of what Allan Duff might say.When he said what he did many Maori were still coming to terms with the legacy of growing up in a Maori speaking home, and having that language beaten out of them at school.Those days are well gone but the policies of the 1law4all party will see a return to such social failure. Robin Bell.
THE PROFESSIONALS DID NOT DO WHAT ALAN DUFF DID
Posted on 29-09-2013 14:02 | By Peter Dey
Ieuan, bringing Alan Duff into the discussion, highlights the fact that Alan Duff, with his books in schools, did something that the education professionals could do but did not do. The education professionals have the responsibility to keep looking for solutions to Maori education failure. They cannot avoid responsibility by blaming the parents or the students.
IEUAN, BOB CLARKSON GOT IT WRONG
Posted on 29-09-2013 14:47 | By Peter Dey
Ieuan, you quote from comments by Bob Clarkson. Bob was annoyed because the Mangatawa Papakainga project was receiving $2.6 million of Government funds. This money was part of $13 million allocated to Maori out of a $104 million Social Housing fund for low income housing. Maori are getting 13% of the total. There is absolutely nothing for anybody to complain about. The houses are rented not rent-free.
APOLOGY EXCEPTED
Posted on 29-09-2013 15:21 | By crazyhorse
I have never said there is no maori in NZ they make up 15% of the population, there will always be a maori race as such, the 1974 maori affairs act brought in by Mat Rata guarantees that, (a people on paper)!!I was thinking of becoming maori myself, maybe joining up with my pommy mate Rubby, my whare needs some doing up and I can't afford it, you reckon I can get a grant, a quiet 40,000 grand should cover it, I will say it again Dey I am not racist, we are all equal, I wonder what sir Ngata Aparana would have thought of what's going on now, what a man well educated, even got into parliament, you may ask how he got there, he was ELECTED, got there on his own merits, frightening stuff eh him being Maori an all!!!.
COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS
Posted on 29-09-2013 16:41 | By Ieuan
Peter Dey, a very civil reply thank you about the comments by Alan Duff. It does make sense and you appear to have a real concern about the facts. Robin Bell, a slightly more agitated person I feel. I've read it was the Maori parents who encouraged their children to speak English in schools as that would lead on to jobs and a better life for them. There were some teachers who beat the kids because decades ago, teachers did take liberties, was that a bad thing? When we were afraid of the strap, we behaved. Nowadays, the kids threaten the teachers with "if you touch me I'll report you to the police." Therefore teachers do not have the control they used to have. Robin, I am still waiting for a reply on papakainga housing. Is it FREE if within a certain distance of a marae? Yes or No?
Guess what Ieuan,Your wrong.
Posted on 29-09-2013 17:50 | By robin bell
I suggest you get a better teacher than Bob Clarkson.Papakainga are primarily a Maori initiative sometimes in partnership with Housing N.Z.sometimes not.Homes are built and rented out in the usual way.Rent is paid,just like in the Pakeha world.No doubt the money you claim John Key "GAVE"was for Housing N.Z. to allocate for that purpose.Less than 1% of govn't spending last year,and one third that given for a boat.So no one gave you a house Ieuan,join the club.Robin Bell.
WHAT HAPPENED TO DEMOCRACY, NOTHING
Posted on 29-09-2013 19:22 | By Peter Dey
C.Humphreys calls our democratically elected councillors undemocratic, when they make allowances for the Maori minority. That does not fit with the democratic principle that the Council should carry out the wishes of all the people. If the Council always follows the wishes of the majority, then the Maori minority can find itself continually disadvantaged. It is not undemocratic of the Council to have Maori representatives to avoid that happening. C.Humphreys seems to be more against fairness for Maori than in favour of democracy.
IEUAN IS RIGHT
Posted on 29-09-2013 20:08 | By crazyhorse
It is fact that education starts at home from the earliest age, reading books with your children and explaining carefully any question they may ask, any teacher in the world will give you the same answer, but according to Dey maori parents need take no responsibility what so ever, that's what the system is for, if things are continually given to people they will have no respect or take no responsibility, you can argue with Dey till the cows come home, your better off going outside and explaining it to the fence.
BROKEN CYCLE RUBBY
Posted on 30-09-2013 09:18 | By crazyhorse
What are you talking about Bell? Allan Duff would have said that around 40 years ago, there was far less maori being spoken in homes than now, your trying to claim the native schools act from 1867 was still in force 40 to 50 years ago, not everyone is so gullible Rubby
Ieuan sits in judgement.
Posted on 30-09-2013 11:04 | By robin bell
I can assure you Ieuan you nor your friends agitate me.Unlike Peter who I admire,I believe in "treat like with like".It was govn't policy to erradicate the Maori language,you ask if that was a bad thing, yet have no hesitation in blaming Maori for the social harm done by disaffected people.Language is the basis for cultural pride and common decency.All of these things are being addressed but you and your friends whinge about the money it takes.Would you prefer to spend that and far more on Prisons and law enforcement?Answer please Ieuan. Robin Bell.
multi million dollar life support
Posted on 30-09-2013 14:09 | By Captain Sensible
What planet are you on Robin? The maori language is made up daily and is propped up on life support in the form of NZ taxpayers dollars. If maori language was a horse, a vet would shoot it. If maori language was a person, the relatives would be demanding a mercy killing. Multi million dollars per year are wasted on this language keeping it alive for a miniscule amount of part maori. Why do the Asian and Europeans etc in NZ keep their languages alive with zero tax payer dollars but maori need $millions???
Gullible crazy, not !
Posted on 30-09-2013 14:26 | By robin bell
Its you who reads all that creative writing.Native School act 1867 extension of the 1858 act.(N.Z. History).The use of the Maori language was actively discouraged,in order to encourage assimilation of Maori into European culture.At first Maori were bilingual.By 1896 Maori had declined to approx.42000 and it was "confidently assumed" that the Maori race would assimilate and simply disappear.As a result by 1960 only 26% of Maori spoke Maori as their first language.That act was repealed in 1962.THAT is the legacy we still live with today.Your insensitivety to such things is your legacy Crazy.Good luck on that.(Rubby the Pommie)
Are you waiting for my reply so you can shoot me down in flames - again!
Posted on 30-09-2013 16:08 | By Ieuan
Robin Bell, I never said it was good to eradicate Maori in schools. I said that the teacher's behaviour may not have been a bad thing as "the strap" brought with it respect.I also said it was Maori parents who wished their children to learn English in schools as it lead to a better future. They obviously continued with their own language at home. Also note that I don't grudge Maori television or radio, these are used as a medium for continuing the Maori language. I am not whinging about money for this and you know that. Of course you admire Peter as he is very calm and measured and I guess quite a gentleman. He agrees my comments re Alan Duff are correct. I reiterate that lazy sods who cannot be bothered to assist their children reach their full potential are probably the reason for educational failure. Agree?
GULLIBLE YEH RITE
Posted on 30-09-2013 18:24 | By crazyhorse
You can't even remember your own comments Rubby, you said when Allan Duff talked about education and maori, the kids were coming to terms with living in homes that only maori was spoken! , hardly any one but the elders spoke maori then, that's a fact, but you go for it matey, don't let facts ruin a good rant!!!!.
The strap Ieuan,
Posted on 30-09-2013 20:39 | By robin bell
For bad behaviour is a debate in itself.However the "strap" we are discussing was to eradicate the Maori language in class.Not only did it traumatise the children(which is why its not allowed today)it led to a virtual disintegration of the Maori culture.Thankfully not quite.The"lazy sods"you refer to are among other things, a result of those policies.Many can never be changed,but the children can.Your cynicism has no place in that challenge.I see you "totally agree"Johnsons letter(Maori problems a burden on public purse)Tell us again how its not about money with you Ieuan.Robin Bell.
@ Robin Bell
Posted on 01-10-2013 08:00 | By Captain Sensible
Still waiting for an explanation as to why no NZ family has ever been compensated by maori for the butchering and eating of their european ancestors, many of whom were innocent women and children missionaries, by maori. It is well documented but it seems to be ignored. Why?
The
Posted on 01-10-2013 09:15 | By robin bell
Don't play silly games your better than that.I spoke of the legacy of growing up in those times.In some that legacy still remains.Imagine someone trying to take away your culture,dignity,language and assets.You and your freinds know nothing of the Maori world,If you did you would never say the things you do.The resentment you feel is nothing compared to the resentment caused by those misguided policies.(Rubby)
The Pommy factor
Posted on 01-10-2013 14:12 | By YOGI BEAR
Peter and Robin have nothing to do with this debate anyway, they are only providing a rectal that they have been told to say from a bunch of academics ... likely from Wellington.
BROKEN CYCLE RUBBY
Posted on 01-10-2013 15:56 | By YOGI BEAR
Rubby is gulliable the answer on that and elsewhere proves that. No evidence just a repeat quick ranting session on a daily basis and nothing new contributed.
IEUAN, KNOWING A REASON IS ONLY HALF A SOLUTION
Posted on 01-10-2013 18:03 | By Peter Dey
Ieuan, you give poor parenting as a reason for education failure. It is a reason, not a solution. Up until 1979 unemployment was below 1% and you did not need a higher education to get a job. Parents who did not need a higher education are not good at helping their own children's education. It is the educational professionals who have the responsibility to find education solutions. Blaming parents is not a solution.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, PAKEHA JUSTICE DEALT WITH IT
Posted on 01-10-2013 18:27 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible has asked before, and been answered, about compensation for Pakeha killed by Maori. Anything before 1840 is irrelevant to present Government compensation. Any injustice to Pakeha after 1840 has been dealt with by the Pakeha justice system. Continuing claims of injustice to early Pakeha is just a smokescreen, to try and avoid justified Treaty settlements for Maori.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, MAORI LANGUAGE IS NOW PART OF US
Posted on 01-10-2013 18:38 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible is disparaging of Maori language. But we have Maori radio and television, Maori schools and universities, Maori spoken at every tangi and formal Maori occasion, and Maori spoken in Parliament. The language is a jewel and those who treasure it want it to survive. This now includes all major political parties, and the majority of our leaders. Captain Sensible is part of an out of touch extreme minority.
YOGI BEAR'S CRITICISM OF ACADEMICS IS VALUELESS
Posted on 01-10-2013 22:18 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR criticizes academics from Wellington, but he does not produce any credible evidence to refute what these academics have said. YOGI BEAR'S accusations are valueless. Academics are people who have spent thousands of hours studying and writing about academic subjects. Historians like Claudia Orange and Michael King have never been discredited. The attempts to discredit them by the books Twisting the Treaty and The Great Divide are seriously flawed.
LEGACY OF GROWING UP IN THOSE TIMES
Posted on 02-10-2013 00:53 | By crazyhorse
I'm not tring to play games or degrade the maori language or culture, maori are only victims because some one has told them they are, I was born and raised in Rotorua, Owhata actually, and lived all my life there till about 10 years ago, founding pupil at lakes high so you can guess how old I am, now Robin I have seen the good, bad, and ugly side of maori, more good than bad I might say as well, but, I am going to say one more time, very little maori was spoken in maori homes 30 or 40 years ago when you talk about what Duff said, I am not being smart or sarcastic it's a fact, how do I know, I was there! in many of those homes, can we move on or do I have to revert to my abusive sarcastic self, I am showing amazing control
The sleeping bear,
Posted on 02-10-2013 09:02 | By robin bell
known as "yogi"is half right and half wrong,actually that is a better result than the usual totally wrong.Please remind us all just what your contribution has been yogi.Robin Bell.
Academics yogi,
Posted on 02-10-2013 10:57 | By robin bell
a little hypocritical old bear!!You choose to take your rectal,as you call it,from Round,Moon,Robinson,1law4all,one N.Z.foundation and all the other pseudo interllectuals who fit your prejudice.I guess you may raise a few more,but I doubt it.Are you the same deluded bear,that stated Maori were "dropped off"by Zeng He?Your elitist eurocentric bent is a joke.
CRAZYHORSE, BLAMING PARENTS IS ONLY HALF A SOLUTION
Posted on 02-10-2013 11:45 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, when Alan Duff described Maori family breakdown, he wanted to motivate people to change. But telling poor parents that they are poor parents changes nothing. When he started his books in schools scheme, he recognised that the education system had to solve the problem. Helping the children of poor parents to do better takes time but brings the change for the better that we are now seeing.
Adieu - for now!
Posted on 02-10-2013 13:01 | By Ieuan
Peter, Robin, I have enjoyed our robust debate. Peter, I suggest modern parenting, lack of example at home which results in poor educational results for some Maori children. Some do brilliantly!. Get Alan Duff more involved. Robin, you are a different kettle of fish, rather aggressive, NEVER admitting that something I say may be correct, whereas I've conceded some points to you. Many excellent Maori out there, bring up good families, work hard e.g. my neighours, they loathe what their "leaders" are doing and agree with me. Some iwi in power abuse their position. I read letters to newspapers, iwi now receive top-up payments of their claims thanks to Finlayson. Am returning home today, been in Tauranga on a break from work, using a friend's computer to participate. Will follow this column from afar, love your sunshine here. Robin, chill out,relax! Bye guys! Over and out - for now!
Thank you Crazy,
Posted on 02-10-2013 13:06 | By robin bell
both for using my given name,and for controling your usual "abusive sarcastic self".I too have seen the good bad and ugly,having married my wife 50yrs.ago.I saw the pain of her Father,(who lived in the far eastern bay)unable to speak to his children in his native tongue.I heard the pride in his voice when she took to learning Maori.I heard the stories from her Mother,(a school teacher) forbidden to teach her children in Maori by a draconian establishment.You see no wrong in that Crazy,but like I said we still live with that legacy.It is changing,but you and others wish to reverse it.Robin Bell.
MAORI ARE DISADVANTAGED AND IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT
Posted on 02-10-2013 14:04 | By Peter Dey
It still seems as though nobody has disproved the claim that Maori students are disadvantaged by the education system, and it is not their fault. Blaming the parents does not solve the problem, and finding a solution is the responsibility of the education professionals. Maori schools, books in schools, and better teaching by Pakeha teachers are all successful parts of the solution. Allowances for Maori are compensation not special privileges.
NO PROVING NEEDED
Posted on 03-10-2013 17:19 | By crazyhorse
Maori make up about 15% of the population, no full blooded maori left, the people we talk about range from being able to relate to maori to 1/8, 1/16 up to what ever, there is a gene in these people that no other (part) race in the world possess, the gene that takes no responsibility for ones self, Peter Dey says we can't prove that maori are disadvantaged by the education system, the excuses people make go back to 1840, its a new world, I don't believe in the devil but I cant prove he doesn't exist, education is a way out and up for everybody but parents and pupils (MUST) put the time and effort in, it can't be like everything else, education is not something you can just hand over, maybe that's what they can't get their heads around, problem solved!!!!.
DRACONION TIMES INDEED
Posted on 03-10-2013 21:09 | By crazyhorse
To stop some one speaking their own language or degrading their culture is wrong and should never happen, but, with all I have read maori at the time wanted their children taught in English and as far as the strap being used plenty of non maori have been on the wrong end of that to, maori language and culture is amazing,as is the tongan, samoan, chinese, scotish, dutch or what ever, those other cultures don't push it down my throat or take over an event every chance they get, try going to anything at school involving your kids these days!!!!!!.
privilege
Posted on 04-10-2013 09:37 | By Captain Sensible
The excuses from Dey and Bell are never ending. BTW, there have been plenty of european murdered by maori POST 1840 whose relatives have never received a cent of compensation from any tribe, yet these same tribes have been claiming compensation for anything they can think of and their good friend, the Appeaser General Finlayson opens the cheque book. Maori have racist rights/privileges/handouts and that is offensive to me. Laziness should not be rewarded with privilege.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE HAS NO PROOF OF INJUSTICE TO PAKEHA
Posted on 04-10-2013 12:11 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible says that there have been plenty of Europeans murdered by Maori after 1840 whose relatives have never received compensation. This is total unsubstantiated supposition. Every murder of any sort after 1840 has been dealt with by the Pakeha justice system. Claims that Pakeha should be compensated are just fiction by people who object to justified Maori Treaty claims.
CRAZYHORSE IS STILL BLAMING THE PARENTS AND STUDENTS
Posted on 04-10-2013 12:28 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse says that Maori possess a gene that makes them take no responsibility for themselves. This is where Crazyhorse shows that his thinking is totally weird. Educational professionals know that Maori themselves are not to blame for the failings of the education system. They are working to change this and they are making progress. Crazyhorse still wants to blame the parents. Thankfully our education professionals are finding better answers.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, FAIR QUESTIONS ARE NOT EXCUSES
Posted on 04-10-2013 12:36 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible says that my excuses are never ending. I am simply pointing out that Captain Sensible has failed to justify his claims. His statement that Maori are claiming compensation for anything they can think of is total unsubstantiated nonsense. All Maori Treaty claims have been properly documented, and are available from the Office of Treaty Settlements.
Garbage,
Posted on 04-10-2013 12:42 | By robin bell
cap'n sensidrible makes excuses for the behaviour of the imperialistic British and some of those that followed.He does this by ignoring their crimes and concentrates on the crimes of those being invaded.This is the classic behavour of your average racist.He believes if he keeps repeating the slogans of the far right it will penetrate peoples reason.How sad.Remember what happened to Captain Bligh he was a real Captain,but he was also a stubborn old fool.Robin Bell.
NOT DRACONIAN JUST HARMONIOUS, CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 04-10-2013 12:46 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse accuses Maori of pushing their culture down his throat at public events. His resentment is unjustified. It is informed Pakeha who now want Maori elements to be included in proceedings. We now have combined Maori/Pakeha formalities because everybody, except the extreme minority like Crazyhorse, wants to celebrate in a bicultural way. We like being bicultural. It enriches us all.
C.HUMPHREYS IS OUT OF DATE AND IGNORANT
Posted on 04-10-2013 21:42 | By Peter Dey
C.Humphreys thinks that all Crown land should remain Crown land. She seems totally ignorant of the fact that Maori Treaty claims have been totally justified and that return of Crown land, is simply returning land, that was wrongly taken, back to the original owners. She asks why Maori expect taxpayers or ratepayers to fund reserves like Mauao. The other alternative would be Maori charging visitors enough to pay for upkeep. That would be worse.
C.HUMPHREYS MISUNDERSTANDS HISTORICAL LAND TIES
Posted on 04-10-2013 21:54 | By Peter Dey
CHumphreys criticizes Maori for wanting to buy back the Mauao reserve. She says that Maori want the land because it is now developed and is a cash cow. She calls Maori greedy, but she does not seem to have even listened to Maori reasons for wanting the land. They identify with that land because their ancestors originally lived there. It has nothing to do with geed.
Cptn n Crazy Stallion.
Posted on 05-10-2013 00:49 | By Crash test dummies
You are correct on all counts, most importantly priveledge, preference, fake claims, mockup myths, and general Bs from stsrt finish.
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 05-10-2013 10:25 | By Captain Sensible
Peter Dey says that injustices post 1840 have been dealt with....so why are maori going back for fifth "final settlements" and dreaming up nonsense that did not exist, to rip off the taxpayers and swell the coffers of corporate mafia iwi?
JAFFA, ASSERTIONS WITHOUT EVIDENCE PROVES NOTHING
Posted on 05-10-2013 10:31 | By Peter Dey
JAFFA supports Captain Sensible and Crazyhorse but produces absolutely no evidence of any sort to back up his support. This illustrates exactly the position of Captain sensible, Crazyhorse, and JAFFA, only assertions and no credible evidence.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, IT WAS GOVERNMENT INJUSTICE AGAINST MAORI
Posted on 05-10-2013 11:03 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible, ever since 1840 Pakeha have had the full support of Pakeha Government to resolve injustice against Pakeha. Since 1840 Maori have had regular lack of support from Pakeha Government to resolve injustice against Maori by the Government. We are now finally trying to make redress to Maori for past injustice by the Government. Pakeha have had justice since 1840. Maori have not.
BLAME EVERYONE EXCEPT THE STUDENTS
Posted on 05-10-2013 11:05 | By crazyhorse
According to P Dey the teachers and tutors are 100% responsible for maori outcomes in training and education, maori now go in to med school on a b bursary, non maori a+ and then only the cream of the crop is picked, these (non) maori are picked liked this for a reason, medicine is a strict discipline, involving life and death. According to Dey and his lack of responsibility on the student what happens if said student gets it wrong and someone dies, how do we decide witch of his tutors is for the chop????.
Prove us wrong
Posted on 05-10-2013 11:12 | By crazyhorse
Dey do you deny some treaty claims have been settled 4 or 5 times before, do you deny there are no full blood maori left, do you deny that maori have their own education system if the choose to use it, do you deny that maori take no responsibility for their own outcomes,
CRAZYHORSE, FULL BLOOD MAORI IS IRRELEVANT
Posted on 05-10-2013 11:52 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse brings up the issue of full blood Maori. Anybody who has Maori ancestry is Maori. The percentage of Maori ancestry is irrelevant. Resettled Treaty claims only occur because previous settlements have been grossly unfair. The Maori education system is only a fair share of total education spending. I do deny that Maori take no responsibility. The whole Maori education system is Maori taking responsibility.
CRAZYHORSE HAS A WARPED VIEW OF MEDICAL EDUCATION
Posted on 05-10-2013 11:59 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse makes some crazy comments about medical education. The Government has accepted a responsibility to increase the numbers of Maori doctors so that the medical profession is not dominated by Pakeha males. They have a Maori quota to achieve this. All Maori students have to be fully qualified to enter and fully qualified to graduate. No student ever gets put into a position where someone might die.
CRAZYHORSE, EDUCATION PROFESSIONALS ARE IN CHARGE
Posted on 05-10-2013 12:08 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, saying that education professionals are responsible for finding solutions to Maori education failure does not mean that Maori students and parents have no part in the outcome. Of course the more responsibility that students and parents take the better the outcome. The point is that the education professionals are the ones with the training to find solutions. They cannot avoid that responsibility. Blaming the students is not a solution.
WHEN WILL IWI BIG BUSINESS START TAKING SOME RESPONSIBILITY
Posted on 05-10-2013 20:25 | By crazyhorse
As in paying tax, the charity known as Ngai Tahu has a profit jump from 68 million to 121 million, yes that's right campers, no tax paid, only gst, where is their responsibility to the other 85% of tax payers, how is a non maori business able to compete with a non tax paying business, the truth is they can't, whats going on????.
WARPED VIEW IS RIGHT
Posted on 05-10-2013 20:49 | By crazyhorse
Non maori A+ bursary and in depth interviews to get in to med school against B bursary and yeah to fill the racial quota, Rodney Hide wrote a good article on this in the herald http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10813483 the headline(racial quotas let down med school talent pool)interesting comment by Ranganui Walker, he's the man!!!
DEY ADMITS FINALLY THERE
Posted on 05-10-2013 21:27 | By crazyhorse
Is a whole maori education system and that is them taking responsibility. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, who is taking responsibility for paying for this racist privilege?????????, Mr Apartheid!!!!!
MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES ALL SUPPORT THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL
Posted on 05-10-2013 21:41 | By Peter Dey
It is easy to see why all major political parties and their leaders support the Waitangi Tribunal, Treaty settlements, and co-governance arrangements. Nothing that C.Humphreys, Captain Sensible, or Crazyhorse has written has provided any credible evidence to challenge the political support for improved Maori/Pakeha relations through steady Treaty settlement progress.
CRAZYHORSE, THE STUDENTS ARE NOT TO BLAME
Posted on 06-10-2013 11:23 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse does not seem to realise how ridiculous it is to expect students to be totally responsible for their success in the education system. Obviously the more responsibility the students take, the better they will do. But, the education professionals are highly trained and highly paid to find solutions to education failure. The students are the customers in the education system. They do not run it.
FULL BLOOD MAORI IS IRRELEVANT
Posted on 06-10-2013 11:40 | By crazyhorse
That's obvious, leader of the part maori party Sioux indian, to be eligible for the gravy train you only need to relate to maori, 16% of this 10% helps but it doesn't really matter eh!!!oh yeah and maybe changing your name, like from John Hadfield to Hone Harewera, instant maori.
WARPED VIEW OF MEDICAL EDUCATION
Posted on 06-10-2013 11:47 | By crazyhorse
Sorry Dey I meant when med student becomes doctor and kills someone because the system was dumbed down to suite him, my apologies.
All Day ... EDUCATION PROFESSIONALS ARE IN CHARGE
Posted on 06-10-2013 12:51 | By Plonker
The parents are primarily responsible for the education of their children, that starts at home and well before school opens ... Your hope of a savior from professionals is at best going to place you in dreamland. There is no way that professionals can solve what is an inherited intergenerational failure to lift the game for ones own children. Perhaps you should take a look at "Once were warriors" the concept therein is obvious.
The percentage of Maori ancestry is irrelevant
Posted on 07-10-2013 10:07 | By crazyhorse
Exactly, people on paper, as it has been written in in to the 1974 maori affairs act by Mat Rata, also you go on to say maori have a whole education system to them selves and this is them talking responsibility for them selves, are not the people paying for this maori education system the one's taking responsibility for it, and who might that be, ahhh, oh yeah the other 85% of the nz population, it's a fact it costs around 1.4 billion dollars a year from kiwi tax payers so maori can take (RESPOSIBILITY)for them selves, what a joke!.
PETE 5-10-13 @ 10.31
Posted on 07-10-2013 12:55 | By Crash test dummies
I dont think Peter that you understand, the onus is on you as the fake claimant to prove an entitlement, to date and over months if not years you have Phailed to produce any basis for any claim, in fact your commentories make it clear that anything other than predecided answers is all that you can think about. Despite all that, many here have presented serious questions about what you have written, rather than answer you have been baledgerant to all who correctly question rather than answer directly, clearly and with anything meaningful. Because of the glaring caverns in your assertions to date is just begging that it be challenged. Add to that of course the whimsical dramas and myths said to be more than they really are because it suits. Peter, commonsense has long since left your fingertips .... We all see it for what it is.
THE STUDENTS ARE NOT TO BLAME
Posted on 07-10-2013 15:03 | By crazyhorse
I have never said students must take full responsibility for their success in the education system, I say they need to try, to have a crack at it off their own backs, you have made it clear maori doing poorly at school is everyone's fault except the maori student, amusing that you describe maori students as customers in the education system, customers pay for goods and services, kiwi tax payers fork out around 1,4 billion a year on racial privileges for these(CUSTOMERS)!!!!!
Ngai Tahu treaty payment top-up in dispute
Posted on 07-10-2013 16:00 | By crazyhorse
South Island tribe Ngai Tahu has entered arbitration with the Crown over a multimillion dollar top-up to its $170 million Treaty of Waitangi cash settlement agreed to 15 years ago. The Crown has already paid Ngai Tahu a $68.5m top-up this year but the parties are in dispute over how much more the taxpayer should pay and have started arbitration. The $68.5m was paid under what is called a "relativity mechanism" and was revealed in Ngai Tahu's annual report for the year to June 30, 2013. These days Ngai Tahu Holdings runs a property business, a tourism business and a seafood business, and holds some highly lucrative investments. It is a registered charitable trust and in the last financial year paid Te Runanga O Ngai Tahu, the tribal organisation which owns it, a $28.25m dividend.
CRAZYHORSE, MAORI MEDICAL STANDARDS NOT DUMBED DOWN
Posted on 07-10-2013 17:26 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse is talking nonsense when he accuses Maori doctors of having dumbed down qualifications. All Maori doctors have to pass exactly the same qualification standard as any other doctor.
MORE UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTIONS FROM JAFFA PROVE NOTHING
Posted on 07-10-2013 18:07 | By Peter Dey
JAFFA seems not to have understood my basic point that statistics show clearly that the education system produces poorer outcomes for Maori students than for Pakeha students. The system is run by a majority of highly paid and highly qualified Pakeha professionals. In other words the education system discriminates against Maori. This makes assistance to Maori students to be compensation not special privileges.
CRAZYHORSE, MAORI EDUCATION SPENDING IS SIMPLY A FAIR SHARE
Posted on 07-10-2013 18:26 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse's description of $1.4 billion a year of spending on Maori education, as racial privileges for Maori, is nonsense. Total Government education spending is $9 billion. $1.4 billion for Maori is 15% of the total, the same as the Maori percentage of the population. This is just a fair share not racial privileges.
QUITE RIGHT CRAZYHORSE, FINDING FAULT IS NOT A SOLUTION
Posted on 07-10-2013 18:37 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse accuses me of saying that Maori student failure is not the fault of the student. He is misleading us. I have simply said that finding fault is not a solution. Of course there are students at fault in their education failure. But the responsibility for finding a solution lies in the hands of the education professionals. Assistance to motivate students is an obvious part of that.
PLONKER, EDUCATION PROFESSIONALS ARE FINDING SOLUTIONS
Posted on 07-10-2013 18:52 | By Peter Dey
Plonker's claim that there is no way that education professionals can solve what is intergenerational failure by Maori parents is unsubstantiated assertion. Education professionals are trying to turn the education system from Pakeha centred to Pakeha/Maori centred. They are making progress. Their spending for Maori is compensation for disadvantage not special privileges. The special privileges campaign is nonsense.
THE MAORI EDUCATION SYSTEM IS RUN BY MAORI
Posted on 07-10-2013 18:57 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse says that, because the taxpayer is paying for the Maori education system, that the taxpayer is responsible for it. This is nonsense. Spending on Maori education is just a fair share of the total. The Maori education system is run by Maori, and was started by Maori. They are clearly responsible for it.
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 08-10-2013 08:43 | By Captain Sensible
Do you really not get it....or do you not want to get it? If the govt spends $9 billion on education, that is for everyone. Nobody is excluded on race. Then, an extra $1.4 billion on maori only education means that maori have access to $10.4 billion of education and everyone else only has access to $9 billion worth. I think you get it alright, but have trouble admitting it. Just another race based privilege for the maori in a long long list.
maori are jeopardising our education
Posted on 08-10-2013 09:17 | By Captain Sensible
Do any other races have their own separate education system in NZ? No! So why do maori think they do? The NZ education system is now far too accommodating for maori and look at how our schools and Uni's are plummeting in world rankings and thus to pamper to maori, NZ is being dumbed down.
SUBSTANTIATED FACTS FROM JAFFA PROVE EVERYTHING
Posted on 08-10-2013 13:40 | By YOGI BEAR
Don't agree with you Peter, the majority here are also in agreement to, obvious, 'read it again mate'.
MAORI EDUCATION SPENDING IS AN EXCESSIVE SHARE
Posted on 08-10-2013 13:43 | By YOGI BEAR
Add to that the results just do not stack up at all either, for all the money spent there is no results, you would think that if money was the solution that Maori would excel academically, however that is far from the truth here, in fact the opposite is happening. A complete rethink by Peter and those involved needs to happen.
EDUCATION PROFESSIONALS AREN'T FINDING SOLUTIONS
Posted on 08-10-2013 13:47 | By YOGI BEAR
Come on Peter, pull the other one, even your figures and references show clearly that there is no results here at all to show even a hint of the that huge monies spent have achieved anything ... that is the point of course that there is no result but the money flows like the Preverbal Tsunami ... it all ends with destruction.
MAORI EDUCATION IS RUN BY MAORI
Posted on 08-10-2013 13:50 | By YOGI BEAR
Peter, it is obvious that is the problem, look at Huntly, Papamoa and the raft of other examples of money being used for things other than what intended, result money gone, no results and kids miss out on what is promised. Only difference this time is that Maori are doing it to Maori, but I guess that will still be everyone else's fault anyway.
Bewiched,Bothered and bewildered
Posted on 08-10-2013 16:50 | By robin bell
alias Crazyhorse,jaffa and the plonker,have been totally seduced by 1law4all and the propaganda they churn out.Continually quoting the same old rubbish with no factual back up whatsoever.Crazy now resorts once again,ad nauseum,to Ngai Tahu.He knows full well that they are one of over one thousand Charitable Trusts in N.Z.All have similar tax arrangements with the I.R.D.Ninetey nine% are Pakeha operated.This smacks of racism.The jaffa tries to shift responsibility to Peter to "prove" his points.Peter simply and succinctly states the truth of the situation as it stands.The plonker claims that intergenerational failure in some Maori cannot be changed.How pathetic is that!!if he took his head out of the racist bucket he would see the rise in Maori achievment across the board.Robin Bell.
MORE WRONG INFORMATION FROM YOGI BEAR
Posted on 09-10-2013 10:49 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR does not know his facts about Maori education. The results for students in the Maori education system are far superior to those in the mainstream system. Spending on Maori education is 15% of the total, the same as the percentage of Maori in the population. The many criticisms of Maori that YOGI BEAR applauds have all been refuted here. Repeating wrong information does not make it correct.
MORE MISUNDERSTANDING BY CAPTAIN SENSIBLE
Posted on 09-10-2013 10:58 | By Peter Dey
The spending on Maori education is not $10.4 billion. It is $1.4 billion out of a total $9 billion. This is 15%, the same as the percentage of Maori in the population. This is fair. Maori asked to be able to run Maori language schools. These schools are producing better results than mainstream schools, and at no extra cost to Pakeha. There is nothing for Captain Sensible to complain about.
NOT LOGICAL CAPTAIN SENSIBLE
Posted on 09-10-2013 11:41 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible wants us to believe that improved education for Maori, who make up 15% of the population, is making education worse for Pakeha, who make up 85% of the population. He blames the drop in international ranking of New Zealand universities on the increased number of Maori students. He ignores the decrease of Government spending on universities. This is not logical.
MAORI AS SICK OF IT AS WE ARE
Posted on 09-10-2013 14:02 | By crazyhorse
It would appear for the first time that Maori are starting to question the wealth the Maori Corps and Iwi have and why they are not helping their people. The questions are being asked because of the fact that Maori are unable or are just not qualified to feed their own kids. The blame and solution for the white man to spoon feed them appears to be shifting. Now, what will happen if their questioning gains momentum? Even rumblings on audits are being thrown around. Will legislation be introduced that makes questioning these corporations illegal? Will the questioning be classed as inciting racial hatred? Will it be seen if the Maori take action to get their slice from the Iwi trigger some fantasy of the crown neglecting its obligations of the treaty and extra top ups will have to be made, (WATCH THIS PAGE CAMPERS)
YOGI BEAR HAS FACTS WRONG ABOUT PAPAMOA AND HUNTLY
Posted on 09-10-2013 14:03 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR quotes incidents at Huntly Kohanga Reo and Papamoa Kura Kokiri, as though money for students was wasted on other things. This is just a beat up based on false information. Students at Papamoa and Huntly were deprived of none of their rightful funding, and there is no evidence that YOGI BEAR can produce to show otherwise. He is just futile mudslinging.
@ Robin Bell
Posted on 09-10-2013 14:22 | By Captain Sensible
"The rise in maori achievement" says Robin Bell. Is this where they all get passes in Basket Weaving modules and kapa haka modules? In some schools only maori get awards for graduating Year 13, and nobody else does. In some schools, every maori gets an award...for anything the school can think of. Non-maori get nothing. By dumbing down the schools to accommodate a lazy attitude, and giving awards for nothing, maori are thinking they are achieving when they are being taught to be unemployable. Treat everyone the same and take the kid gloves off and then maori may achieve. Laziness and racism should not be rewarded.
Peter Phails to simply n succinctly states the truth?
Posted on 09-10-2013 16:15 | By YOGI BEAR
There is no basis, there is no facts, in fact, the facts are ignored because to "see" the multitude of would end the rabbiting from the quarter forever.
The Three Stooges,
Posted on 09-10-2013 20:50 | By robin bell
crazy the plagiarising horse,yogi the non sensicle bear and the cap'n sensidribble,continue with the rubbish they are famous for.Crazy now claims "Maori are now questioning the settlements" Please tell us crazy,who are these Maori? Would it be the activists in the Waikato again?Inter-iwi disputes should give no comfort.The moment you poke your nose in,they will unify. yogi the dumb bear again makes an absolute fool of himself.Please yogi share some "facts" with everyone,like er!the dropping off of Maori by Zeng He Chinese explorer who never came to N.Z.or the Celtic king who brought his tribe to N.Z.4000yrs ago.As for the idiotic cap'n sensidribble.Dumbing down is a good term when applied to himself.Robin Bell.
CAPTAIN SENSIBLE SHOULD CHECK SOME STATISTICS
Posted on 09-10-2013 20:57 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible is writing a great deal of unsubstantiated rubbish about what goes on in Maori schools. The Tainui secondary school in Hamilton, Nga Taiatea Wharekura, has 270 Maori speaking students. Their pass rates in NCEA levels 1,2,and 3 exams last year (2012) were 88%,98%, and 97%. The NZ pass rates were 79%, 84%, and 76%. These students are totally employable in much more than basket weaving.
YOGI BEAR HAS FACTS WRONG ABOUT PAPAMOA AND HUNTLY
Posted on 09-10-2013 21:16 | By crazyhorse
Perhaps Peter can fill us in on the kings niece, she took around $10,000 from the Huntly Kahango Reo, whats happening about this?????????????????
ONLY THE IGNORANT ARE RESENTFUL, CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 09-10-2013 21:21 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse says that Maori are asking why iwi are not helping their people. Only the misinformed think this. Ngati Ranginui received a settlement of about $40 million for about 8,000 members. Income from $40 million is $2 million per year. This would be $250 per member per year in handouts. Informed members want investment for the future, like Ngai Tahu and Tainui, not handouts. Only the ignorant think handouts now are possible.
MORE MAORI ACHIEVEMENT STATISTICS FOR CAPTAIN SENSIBLE
Posted on 09-10-2013 21:53 | By Peter Dey
National Maori pass rates for NCEA Level 1: 2008 53%, 2012 66%; NCEA Level 2: 2008 63%, 2012 75%; NCEA Level 3: 2008 53%, 2012 66%. These are NZQA figures. They show that Maori education achievement is improving. Captain Sensible's complaints about Maori education are fiction, and totally lacking in credibility.
MORE MAORI ACHIEVEMENTS ...
Posted on 10-10-2013 08:21 | By YOGI BEAR
Peter, you forgot the most important features x2, the comparison to non Maori that is about 70% of that and second that the required bench mark or pass threshold is dropping, this is done to create enough "passes" so as to populate the next stage is the Maori education gravy train. If no on e passes then the next stage has no job. Call it a bit self indulgent and self beneficial.
Christopher Finlayson as Ngai Tahu's legal counsel.
Posted on 10-10-2013 08:52 | By crazyhorse
Ngai Tahu chairman Mark Solomon told Q+A on June 6, 2010, they ''lost $12 billion worth of assets and accepted as a compensation $170 million''. Mr Solomon's bold claims invite a closer look at Ngai Tahu's behaviour. Quickly it becomes obvious Ngai Tahu did not lose $12 billion. It sold most of the 15,121,483ha South Island in 10 deals over 20 years from 1844 for a total of 14,750. In fact, most of the South Island was sold by Ngai Tahu and other chiefs in Australia before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed, and Governor William Hobson's undertaking to investigate pre-1840 sales opened the way for Ngai Tahu to sell the South Island all over again. Ngai Tahu does not want the public to know the tribe has squeezed five ''full and final'' settlements out of successive governments over a trumped-up dispute over one aspect of one land transaction.
ONLY THE IGNORANT ARE RESENTFUL
Posted on 10-10-2013 09:02 | By crazyhorse
The head honcho's at Ngai Tahu don't mind handing out to them selves, I see in their report 10 honchos on $100,000 plus, any new movies in Disneyland this week for apologist lackies.
YOGI BEAR IS TOTALLY IGNORANT ABOUT NCEA ASSESSMENT
Posted on 10-10-2013 10:27 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR is just wishful thinking when he says that the required pass threshold is dropping for NCEA passes. He is suggesting that the NZQA organisation is deliberately making it easier for students to pass. He produces no proof of this because the suggestion is absolute rubbish.
CRAZYHORSE HAS BEEN MISLED OVER THE NGAI TAHU SETTLEMENT
Posted on 10-10-2013 10:39 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse presents a great deal of information about the Ngai Tahu Treaty settlement. However the Waitangi Tribunal chose to use more reliable sources of information than Crazyhorse is giving us. Crazyhorse should explain why he thinks his information is more reliable than the Waitangi Tribunal's.
CRAZYHORSE, IF NOTHING WAS DONE THERE WAS NO CRIME
Posted on 10-10-2013 11:03 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse should tell us what evidence he has of any crime committed by the King's niece. If nothing has been done about it, then it means that no crime has been committed. If Crazyhorse thinks he has evidence of some cover up he should produce it. Assertions without evidence are just more mudslinging fiction.
CRAZYHORSE IS BEING FOOLED BY PROPAGANDA
Posted on 10-10-2013 12:30 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse continues to resent Treaty settlements. All recent Governments have accepted Treaty settlements. They have accepted the credibility of the evidence for the settlements. Crazyhorse is part of an extreme minority that seems to start by being resentful of Maori, and then working backwards to try and find valid reasons to criticise Treaty settlements, so far unsuccessfully.
YOGI IS TOTALLY CORRECT ABOUT NCEA ASSESSMENT
Posted on 10-10-2013 15:18 | By YOGI BEAR
Peter, the numbers you recorded show the results of these changes ... I rest my case, case concluded, you have been measured, assessed, tried and found wanting. game over Peter :)
Christopher Finlayson's vested interest
Posted on 10-10-2013 15:21 | By YOGI BEAR
Yes Crazy Steed, the past speaks for itself and is vindicated now in the actions, recommendations and decisions of Christopher Finlayson now. he should not be in the job as he fails ever test of objectivity, reasonableness, fairness, balance and justice. there are no excuses Peter, it just-is.
Ngai Tahu were ripped off crazy,
Posted on 10-10-2013 16:41 | By robin bell
just like most Maori of the day.The N.Z.Company along with other landsharks were the norm in pre treaty N.Z.Prohibition was enacted in 1839.The so called sales you and your mentors rely on were illegal panic by greedy pakeha.At one point they claimed purchases amounting to an area far exeeding the total land mass of N.Z.Get this one crazy!! three land claims Commissioners appointed in 1842,Richmond,Godfrey and Spain,to investigate all pre Treaty "purchases"if the deal was in good faith and accurate it was validated.If not the land was "returned to Maori"In a pigs ear,the good old Crown pounced on it,to sell at a later date to pakeha.The people you worship crazy have distorted the truth,and you've bought it hook,line and sinker.how dumb is that!! Robin Bell.
CHRIS FINLAYSON HAS IMPROVED RACE RELATIONS BRILLIANTLY
Posted on 10-10-2013 17:36 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR continues to hurl baseless abuse. He accuses Chris Finlayson of failing every test of objectivity, reasonableness, fairness, balance, and justice. In fact Chris Finlayson has finally got Treaty settlements all but completed and to the satisfaction of the majority of New Zealanders. This has been an enormous contribution to good race relations. Only an ignorant, extreme minority cannot see this.
NGAI TAHU ARE RIPPING US OFF LIKE CRAZY
Posted on 10-10-2013 18:00 | By crazyhorse
Five full and final settlements, now seems its only been weak gov't that's got us where we are now, as in they have all had a (FINLAYSON)! Once the Treaty of Waitangi Amendment Act 1985 enabled inquiries into claims back to 1840, Henare Rakiihia Tau, supported by the Ngai Tahu Maori Trust Board, revisited all of Ngai Tahu's old issues and more, resulting in a further $170 million payout in 1998, the tribe's fifth settlement. While Ngai Tahu demands bigger top-ups, the repeated settlements show it has been playing successive political leaders as fools. The current Government could demand the return of the $170 million paid to the tribe in 1998, plus interest, as well as the return of the recent $68.5 million top-up.s where we are now.
IF NOTHING WAS DONE THERE WAS NO CRIME
Posted on 10-10-2013 18:10 | By crazyhorse
King Tuheitia's niece will have to pay back thousands of dollars she took from a Huntly kohanga reo, the National Kohanga Reo Trust says. Ms Black said it was her "call" not to take the issue to police. We've been working on the issue and we've had hui with the whanau. What this shows is that [kohanga] have to stick to process so these sorts of things don't happen. It's about safety for our mokopuna and making sure we run good kohanga," Ms Black said.
ROBIN BELL IS MORE CONVINCING THAN CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 10-10-2013 18:11 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, Robin Bell's explanation of the Ngai Tahu land problems makes it quite clear why the Waitangi Tribunal has found Crazyhorse's version of events to be totally lacking in credibility. Ngai Tahu were ripped off, and the Waitangi Tribunal evidence clearly showed it.
SHAKY EVIDENCE DOES NOT JUSTIFY RESENTMENT
Posted on 10-10-2013 19:19 | By Peter Dey
It is noticeable that most of the resentful comments here towards Maori have very shaky support. Time and again people make criticisms of Maori that are then shown to be misinformed. People seem to have made up their minds first, and after that gone looking for support for their view. The resentment expressed is simply not justified by the shaky evidence produced.
REPEATED CLAIMS BECAUSE EARLIER SETTLEMENTS UNFAIR
Posted on 11-10-2013 08:26 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse's obsession with Ngai Tahu ignores the fact that repeated claims have been justified because Governments have repeatedly forced iwi to accept unfair settlements. In Tauranga the Government forced local Maori to accept a settlement of $250,000 in 1981, for land worth about $200 million.
WHAT IS CRAZYHORSE TRYING TO PROVE
Posted on 11-10-2013 08:44 | By Peter Dey
At present the Government is borrowing $100 million a week. Crazyhorse is obsessing over financial accusations against the King's niece. Does Crazyhorse think that he has found the cause of the Government's financial problems? Does Crazyhorse think he has proved that Maori are the cause of the Government's problems? Does one unproven isolated incident prove anything?
LACK OF TRANSPARENCY JUSTIFIES SUSPICION
Posted on 11-10-2013 09:05 | By crazyhorse
Dey says people who comment here have no evidence to work with, he says the history used to settle claims is all available in (FULL) ON THE GOV'T WEB SITE http://www.ots.govt.nz/, this is an untruth, very little is available, none on some claims, deemed to sensitive!!!the historians used to supply this revisionist history are paid story tellers, given large sums of money and positions to keep the fairy tale alive, authors of history from 170 or so years ago, who were there, now don't count, I wonder what the revisionists will be writing 60 years from now when we are on the 22 full and final settlement????????.
ISOLATED INCIDENTS PROVE NOTHING, CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 11-10-2013 09:07 | By Peter Dey
By going on about the King's niece Crazyhorse seems to think he is proving something. Brendon Horan was expelled from New Zealand First. This proved nothing about New Zealand First. Phillip Field was imprisoned. This proved nothing about the Labour Party. Crazyhorse is trying to blacken the reputation of Maori with an isolated incident over the King's niece. He has lost the plot.
CRAZY IS MORE CONVINCING THAN THE POM
Posted on 11-10-2013 09:19 | By crazyhorse
A LITTLE SOME THING I FOUND ON NGAI TAHU BY NGAI TAHU. Author Jean Jackson, granddaughter of 1800s Maori chief Tare Weteri (Charles Wesley) Te Kahu, has written a new book wherein she claims many Maori grievance cases are false and without legal standing. •Maori were themselves the tricksters who sold land sometimes TWO or THREE times - before and after the Treaty of Waitangi was signed. •NGAI Tahu chiefs queued up to sell South Island lands. •Waitangi Tribunal hearings did not use cross-examinations, a move criticised by London Privy Councillor Lord Robin Cooke for” making it impossible to test adequately some of the material.” •Maori held power over their tribes by private courts which followed the law of the day. •Maori often sold land to payoff debts run up by their desire to be 'socially acceptable” and have European clothes and possessions, for themselves and their wives. •In some cases, Maori owe the Crown compensation for killing many early European settlers. •Maori chiefs who agreed to sign a private treaty not to unofficially sell land reneged on the deal and, alter selling quarter of the South island, sold a further half In February 1840. •Maori have already been compensated by the Crown through the Land Commissioner's Courts which ruled that settlers who had bought land must be register land claims with the Land Commission Court; and, •The court was fastidious in checking the deals were fair and honest and if there was any doubt the land had to be returned to Maori, who got to keep the land AND the money.
Crazy's
Posted on 11-10-2013 09:30 | By robin bell
settlements were never agreed to by Maori.Full and Final is a term used only by Pakeha.Ask yourself Crazy,why would anyone agree to a pittance for thier land,Maori took what was given,it was that or nothing.You have constantly refered to Maori as ignorant savages,yet now you give them credit for "outwitting" successive N.Z.governments.The way foreward is the way we are going.You nor your extremist mates will bully the Maori people or govn't into returning to the injustice of the past.All of the discrediting waffle you engage in is meaningless time wasting.Why not take up Tiddly Winks,that will keep you busy.Robin Bell.
DEY AND THE POMS VERSION OF FAIR AND JUST!
Posted on 11-10-2013 09:35 | By crazyhorse
The claims are dealt with thru the Waitangi tribunal, by maori for maori, how many have been turned down, perhaps Dey can tell us, all evidence used is carefully shielded from close scrutiny by anyone not (in the loop!!) once passed it goes on to the Ngai Tahu negotiator Finlayson, who also is in charge of treaty settlements for the NZ gov't, what happens after that is any ones guess, maybe he jumps from one side of the table to the other agreeing with himself, got to admit campers sounds a little bit suspect!!!.
CRAZYHORSE SHOULD GIVE US SERIOUS FRAUD OFFICE FIGURES
Posted on 11-10-2013 13:20 | By Peter Dey
If Crazyhorse really believes that Maori are ripping off the taxpayer he should produce evidence from serious fraud office figures to back up his claim. If there are no such figures to back up his claim, then he should realise that his resentment against Maori is not actually justified.
CRAZYHORSE IS DELUDING HIMSELF WITH HALF-TRUTH
Posted on 11-10-2013 15:19 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse chooses to ignore the fact that both Government and Maori know that current Treaty settlements return less than 10% of the value of land unfairly taken. In Tauranga Maori have received $50 million for land worth $500 million or more. This means that requiring the Waitangi Tribunal to spend 50 years in public hearings with lengthy cross examination would be total overkill. What we are getting is sensible justice.
DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS
Posted on 11-10-2013 15:22 | By crazyhorse
I put this comment to show what happened here, tax payers money was taken from the Huntly Kohango Reo, they them selves admit this, Tituki Black admits she did not go to the police and it was kept in house, so to speak, its tax payers money set aside for the Kohango Reo, and Dey seems to think this is the way an organisation should be run, go in to a shop take fifty bucks out of the till and see what happens, is it just me that seems to think this is wrong???????????
WHY DOES NEW ZEALAND FIRST NOT SUPPORT CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 11-10-2013 15:43 | By Peter Dey
The National, Labour, and Green Political Parties all support a bicultural New Zealand, and support the Treaty settlement process. If Crazyhorse has such strong evidence that the Treaty settlement process is a fraud why is the New Zealand First Party not using it? Probably Crazyhorse has only got half-truth and everybody else realises this.
CRAZYHORSE CANNOT SEE THE WOOD FOR THE TREES
Posted on 11-10-2013 15:59 | By Peter Dey
Of course the finances of the Huntly Kohanga Reo seem questionable, but nobody has been charged with any criminal offence. Crazyhorse is giving us a whole lot of hearsay evidence, that he wants to believe but is actual proof of nothing, because we do not know the full story. Is Crazyhorse saying that one isolated incident at Huntly proves that all Maori organisations are ripping off the taxpayer?
WHY DOES NZ FIRST NOT SUPPORT CRAZYHORSE?
Posted on 11-10-2013 17:34 | By Plonker
Good question Peter, that is however very simple to clarify and I am surprised that you don't know the answer already, in fact like everything else Crazyhorse has stated you do know but chose to ignore. Anyway ... the reason is simple "political survival" the scary part is the bombardment of Maori lovers and the faithful upon the realistic and factual statements that would be made. The truth does not matter Peter (as you have clearly shown with your rhetoric repeatedly to date. I hope that is clear now for you, although I know before I even started this paragraph that you would just ignore the truth, facts and evidence and carry on your pre-decided and desired path to the never-never land you always wished for.
PETERS IS DELUDING HIMSELF WITH NO-TRUTH
Posted on 11-10-2013 17:38 | By Plonker
At least peter accepts Crazyhorse has got half the truth, although that is wrong as he has got it 100% right 100% of the time so far. Quite amazing really for a young and wise horseman. Meanwhile off in noddle land Peter is still looking for that hope and dream like idea that there is some connection between the truth of it all and the desired outcome. Peter save yourself a few lifetimes and just jump straight to the end result, ops you already have ....
CRAZYHORSE, TAXPAYER'S MONEY SHOULD NOT BE MISUSED
Posted on 11-10-2013 19:10 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse is confused over misuse of taxpayer's money. Pointing out that Crazyhorse is making accusations against Huntly Kohanga Reo based on incomplete, hearsay information, does not mean support for stealing fifty dollars from a shop, or misusing taxpayer money. Crazyhorse is making serious accusations about an isolated incident based on uncertain information, as though this proves that all Maori are ripping off the taxpayer.
DEY TAX PAYERS MONEY MUST NOT BE MISUSED
Posted on 12-10-2013 09:48 | By crazyhorse
Where and when have I said all maori and their organisations are ripping off tax payers money, but, I guess if all these (incidents!!!) are dealt with in (house!!!) a quiet hui with the whanau??????? we will never know whats going on with (tax payers money!!!!!!!).
CRAZYHORSE THINKS MAORI ARE RIPPING OFF THE TAXPAYER
Posted on 12-10-2013 10:36 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse seems to think that too many Maori are ripping off the taxpayer even if he never said they all are. Otherwise why does he keep going on about it? And for proof that too many Maori are ripping off the taxpayer he produces the story of Huntly Kohanga Reo for which he does not have the whole story. This is desperate stuff, and proves nothing.
PLONKER. THE MAJORITY RULES
Posted on 12-10-2013 10:48 | By Peter Dey
Plonker says that New Zealand First does not support Crazyhorse's view because of political survival. He says that New Zealand First are influenced by Maori lovers. This means that New Zealand First has accepted, like National, Labour, and Greens, that the majority of us want a bicultural New Zealand. So why are Crazyhorse and Plonker objecting when their reasons are so unconvincing?
majority of us want a bicultural New Zealand.
Posted on 12-10-2013 11:27 | By crazyhorse
I love living in a bicultural NZ, getting fresh veg from the Polynesian markets, eating in china town, visiting the Dutch club, not so keen on the Morris dancers, but hey lots of other people enjoy it, just a shame we have people who don't like being bicultural, you know, needing their own health, education, welfare systems, housing, I don't understand!!.wanting to live away from us multicultural folk!!!!!!!.
Winston Peters: Whanau Ora 'seperatist'
Posted on 12-10-2013 11:43 | By crazyhorse
The Whanau Ora policy is an example of separatism and won't work, New Zealand First leader Winston Peters says. The idea that you can deliver a separatist system where Maori are one 10th of the population, regardless of the excellence of that system, it's never going to be good enough." Mr Peters said education was key. "Maori have to do that first... you will not get there by some group of romantics in the Maori world thinking 'well we can deliver better'.
DEY IS ONLY DELUDING HIMSELF
Posted on 12-10-2013 11:51 | By crazyhorse
Its a 170 years down the track and we are talking about the value of Tauranga, back 170 years ago it was just bush, maybe not,(BLAZING) was big back then too, Dey claims maori should get 500 million not 50 million for it, what about the ever so slight improvements on it, hospitals, schools, power, running water, sewerage, you can relate to that Peter, and houses, all of us including you live in houses, not caves, mud huts, or holes in the ground, where do you get 500 million from, you owe(US) big time, cough up now.
CRAZYHORSE, SEPARATE MAORI CULTURE IS BICULTURAL
Posted on 12-10-2013 12:04 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse is confused if he thinks that Maori having their own health, education, welfare and housing provisions means that Maori want to live away from everybody else. Maori have never said that they want to live away from everybody else. They just want to be able to do some things in their own way. Only an extreme minority, like Crazyhorse, objects to this.
CRAZYHORSE ILLUSTRATES PAKEHA DOMINATION
Posted on 12-10-2013 12:12 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse says that he supports biculturalism, but then he objects to the way that Maori want to express their culture. This illustrates perfectly the problem that Maori have always had. They have to always deal with a Pakeha majority that thinks they know better than Maori what is good for them. Crazyhorse should just but out and let Maori decide for themselves.
NO DELUSION, JUST FACTS, CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 12-10-2013 12:27 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse is confused about the current value of Tauranga land. Current compensation is based on current value. 20,000 hectares of land was unfairly taken. The current value of undeveloped farmland is about $25,000 a hectare. This makes the current value of land taken about $500 million. Crazyhorse has again lost the plot.
Crazyhorse says that he supports biculturalism
Posted on 12-10-2013 12:30 | By crazyhorse
And he does, I am watching the all blacks and they perform the haka, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, what a buzz, what I don't support is (separatism and apartheid). Fact is most maori folk don't either, only about 100 people support this BS, why its called the gravy train and your on board.whooo, whooo.
NZ FIRST SUPPORTS CRAZY
Posted on 12-10-2013 12:40 | By crazyhorse
OH GEE I DIDN'T SEE THIS COMMING!!!. Do you not read any of the nz first policies or listen to wineys speeches, he is always having a go at misuse of money pertaining to maori and the privileges handed out, but don't worry I have maybe 30 or 40 nz first examples I can roll out for you, every one is sick of your (PROPAGANDA) try some facts for a change, surprise everyone.
SEPARATISM AND APARTHEID ARE CRAZYHORSE FANTASIES
Posted on 12-10-2013 12:47 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse seems to think that Treaty settlements mean separatism and apartheid. Separatism is Maori wanting to live separately. They do not want this. Apartheid would be Maori controlling New Zealand. They do not want this. It is fantasy. Treaty settlements are supported by National, Labour, and Green Political Parties. Calling it a gravy train is mindless mudslinging. Mudslinging proves nothing.
Mauria Te Pono remember Crazy?
Posted on 12-10-2013 13:01 | By robin bell
"Keep Steadfastly to the Truth".N.Z.is a bi-cultural nation at last you get it.Your vague suggestive style stretches the truth,mimicking the "creative writers"you love so much.There are so many examples its hard to know where to start.A couple of sea shells as proof of a pre-Maori civilisation,your claim that the Land Claims Commission returned land to Maori in fraudulent cases is in direct conflict with The State Services Commission,who state clearly"If the purchase was invalid or exceeded 2'560 acres the excess land in question was NOT returned to the original Maori owners,but became Crown land.Robin Bell.
NEW ZEALAND FIRST SUPPORTS CRAZYHORSE, AGREED
Posted on 12-10-2013 13:41 | By Peter Dey
Point accepted, New Zealand First agrees with Crazyhorse. They do not support Treaty settlements or separate assistance for Maori. This fits in with the fact that they currently rate 4% in the opinion polls. So Crazyhorse has support from 4% of the population for his views. This is what we are trying to get him to understand.
Most Kiwis don't think Maori hold a special place
Posted on 12-10-2013 14:33 | By crazyhorse
The question was put to New Zealanders in a Close Up poll. Of the 39,670 who voted, 81% said they did not think Maori held a special place, while 19% said they did. "If we had asked should we get rid of the Treaty, you would have got the same result. There have been a few polls published in SunLive, all between 80 to 90% against your separatist apartheid ideas, want me to dig them out too, honestly its no trouble!.
MAKE UP YOUR MIND DEY
Posted on 12-10-2013 14:57 | By crazyhorse
One minute I am not supported and next I am but it doesn't count, the maori party got 31,982 votes at the last election and lost 2 seats down to 3, NZ first got 147,544 votes and 8 seats, you go on about only 4% of the population voting for him, who cares, numerous polls taken around nz in the last 10 years clearly show 80 to 90% of Kiwi are against racial quota as in schools and unelected people slipping their way into local gov't and on any board they can make a buck out of, the same % of people against special hand outs and privileges, i'm looking at 4 polls taken in the last 18 months, if you want me to post them just say.
Mauria Te Pono remember BELL
Posted on 12-10-2013 15:10 | By crazyhorse
"Keep Steadfastly to the Truth. What was that about the state services commission. Maori have already been compensated by the Crown through the Land Commissioner's Courts which ruled that settlers who had bought land must be register land claims with the Land Commission Court; and, •The court was fastidious in checking the deals were fair and honest and if there was any doubt the land had to be returned to Maori, who got to keep the land AND the money. Waitangi Tribunal hearings did not use cross-examinations, a move criticised by London Privy Councillor Lord Robin Cooke for” making it impossible to test adequately some of the material.”
PRODUCE THE POLLS CRAZYHORSE
Posted on 12-10-2013 15:14 | By Peter Dey
Make sure you include the full wording of poll questions asked, Crazyhorse. Poll questions do not always identify issues accurately.
CRAZYHORSE DOES NOT DENY THE 1981 UNFAIR TAURANGA SETTLEMENT
Posted on 12-10-2013 16:14 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse makes an issue of the Ngai Tahu Treaty settlement because there had been previous settlements. He can not deny that the 1981 Tauranga settlement of $250,000 for land worth $200 million was clearly unfair. It is half-truth for crazyhorse to ignore the unfairness of earlier Ngai Tahu settlements.
Its Nitty Gritty time Crazy!
Posted on 12-10-2013 16:35 | By robin bell
Iv'e given my source on the Land Claims Commission rulings,time for you to front up with yours.Hope its not Twisting The Treaty again.Regarding the so called numerous 'full and finals"In 1944 Ngai Tahu received 10,000 pounds per annum for thirty years,fait accompli, take it or leave it.Other Iwi getting less.Now I understand that in your greedy world that is acceptable,but in a better world that is,in a word "crap".As for your 80-90% of N.Zers wanting to get rid of the Treaty!I would say 80-90% of them would have no idea of the consequences of such a stupid move.Do you Crazy? Robin Bell.
I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION HE GRIEVANCE INDUSTRY IS OPEN TO CORRUPTION
Posted on 13-10-2013 14:41 | By crazyhorse
Why do I use the term industry, that's what it is, there are people who make their livings off this industry, legal firms who specialise solely in the tow and all claims dealing with it, let me use the example of Palmer and Chen, palmer helped cause this problem and it is a problem, maori were not victims till people like Palmer told them they were, where else in the world could palmer go and help start something like the Waitangi tribunal then years later start a law firm dealing in these claims and making millions of dollars from the NZ tax payer. Next lets visit the history used in these claims, all taken from modern (revisionists) I don't need to name them everyone knows whom i'm talking about, no longer does it matter what the people back 170 years said or wrote about, history from the people (THERE).
CORRUPTION PART 4
Posted on 13-10-2013 15:49 | By crazyhorse
If you get on to this site it is easy to navigate just put tribe name in and up comes the info on said claim. they will tell you what land is being given back and money that iwi will receive, but the history involved is down right suspect, anything thing from page after page to nothing on other claims, my favourite is the latest claim settled, Tuhoe, Binney a revisionist historian wrote a book on this and every one you talk to has a different view, history on this claim on the gov't site, 20 lines, about 80 words, why hide it?????, so, take out of this what you will, but I say the treaty process is open to abuse, and is being worked to the max by a few individuals, that's me done, good by, well for now any way, maybe in the future.
CORRUPTION PART 2
Posted on 14-10-2013 17:20 | By crazyhorse
Next the waitangi tribunal, run by maori for maori, no public input, •Waitangi Tribunal hearings do not use cross-examinations, a move criticised by London Privy Councillor Lord Robin Cooke for” making it impossible to test adequately some of the material.” How can you say this is fair and just, at least the history used should be on show to the public, and I mean the full history. Now it gets really bizzare, once the claim has been ok'd by the tribunal it goes to the minister in charge of TOW claims, have we not had some high calibre people selected for this job, Doug Graham comes to mind, my didn;t it all catch up to him in the end.
CORRUPTION PART 3
Posted on 14-10-2013 17:38 | By crazyhorse
Now the claims go to the National minister for TOW claims,( Ngai Tahu negotiator) Finlayson, HELLO, any bells ringing yet, and to rub salt into the wound he is not even an elected member, I say again how can anyone looking at this process say it is fair and just, you simply can't. Now to finish, all information pertaining to claims is supposed to be available for public inspection at, http://www.ots.govt.nz, have a look for your selves, make up your own minds.
The conclusion,
Posted on 15-10-2013 13:26 | By robin bell
we have to come to crazy is that you have nothing but prejudiced opinion.Parts 1to4 offer nothing as usual.Palmer did'nt cause the problem,he just happened to be there.To claim Maori were never victims of greedy theft is to thumb your nose at proven fact.Raglan,Bastion Point,Wigram just a few of the recent examples,Have a look at N.American 1st Nations for the worldwide precedent you claim does'nt exist.As for history,take your pick!!Recently it was shown that two British Colonial heroes were liars.Dr David Livingstone lied to get sponsorship,what he claimed existed in Africa wasn't there and still isn't.The great Clive of India presided over mass genocide and claimed a great victory.All reference to him is erradicated in British schools.What price the word of lesser mortals who were there Crazy?If you want to fight corruption,thats a noble cause,but to pick only on Maori issues is a little blinkered.Au Revoir Robin Bell.
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