Weak attempt Charles

Posted on 30-08-2013 11:54 | By Captain Sensible

Charles, can you show us where only "pakeha" were reimbursed for Sth Canty Finance failure, and other races, including maori, were not? What is your source? Maybe you should think before making yourself such an easy target to prove wrong. I know of at least two maori couples who lost money and got the same refund from the govt as everyone else. Your argument has just been shot down in flames.

Charles Timutimu

Posted on 30-08-2013 18:07 | By robin bell

should feel priveleged,Charles you are the first person the good Cap'n has been able to catch out.Usually he gets bogged down in his own prejudice.He is correct on this one,the one and only one I might add.Maori compensation should not be confused with other Gov't insurance.Robin Bell.

@ Robin Bell

Posted on 30-08-2013 23:05 | By Captain Sensible

Wrong again Robin. Not so long ago you or one of your ilk were saying it was 4000 km between NZ and Australia. I had to point that error out as well.

Cap'n takes the bait

Posted on 01-09-2013 13:29 | By robin bell

Dear oh!Dear Cap'n.Is that the only mistake you can latch on to,in how long now?An oversight in distance,nothing to do with the subject matter.Face up to it Cap'n you and your mates have nothing to offer,and clutch at straws.Robin Bell

Too easy

Posted on 01-09-2013 21:51 | By Captain Sensible

As usual Robin, I have to point out that you and your ilk have been caught out on other occasions. Recently you or Mr Dey allegedly quoted that "Twisting The Treaty" stated on page 296 that maori were the first settlers in NZ. I re-read page 296 and it does not say that. You tried a bluff but it backfired because I called your bluff. I catch you out for fun, but it's getting too easy. And still nothing has changed...you support race based privileges and I don't. So which one of us is the racist?

Not so fast Cap'n

Posted on 02-09-2013 13:09 | By robin bell

I too disagree with race based privilege.The kind for instance that Pakeha have enjoyed for over 150yrs.Now Cap'n its coming to an end.In reality you won't even notice any difference,but you are so greedy you just can't stand the thought of it.No doubt you will deny such privilege,so I'll list a few that have denied most Maori an equal chance.Education 'Pakeha model'.Governance in total,Pakeha model.Banking and Finance,Pakeha model.Communications,Radio,Tv,etc.Pakeha model.The list goes on.Your belief that you can turn Maori into defacto pakeha is arrogant rubbish.Your futile adoption of degrading misinformation to emphasise your point of view is an insult to your own race.Remember Cap'n "Money paid for STOLEN land" Repeat 10 times and you will remember.Robin Bell.

HALF-TRUTH CAPTAIN SENSIBLE

Posted on 02-09-2013 13:41 | By Peter Dey

Quote from page 296 of 'Twisting the Treaty”: 'The most widely agreed date of the first settlement of Maori in New Zealand is around 1250 AD. This was reinforced by findings of a research group led by Atholl Anderson of the Australian National University and Janet Wilmshurst from New Zealand's Landcare Research.” Quote from Janet Wilmshurst's report: 'New Zealand, Hawaii, and Rapa Nui, were the last habitable places on earth colonized by prehistoric humans.” This says that nobody colonised New Zealand before Maori arrived. Page 296 of 'Twisting the Treaty” agrees and leaves no doubt that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand.

RACE BASED PRIVILEGES

Posted on 02-09-2013 14:16 | By Peter Dey

Race based provisions in New Zealand are not privileges for Maori. They do not make Maori better off at the expense of non-Maori. They are designed to counter the privilege that Pakeha have of having a Pakeha dominated Government. The history of New Zealand is one of Pakeha Governments making decisions that have favoured Pakeha.

@ Peter Dey & Robin Bell

Posted on 02-09-2013 17:28 | By Captain Sensible

Have you ever heard of "democracy"? One man/woman = one vote.

Just because maori are not the majority should not give them any special rights. The majority have no race based privileges because we are the majority, but maori have too many race based privileges/handouts/favours. Can you or Robin Bell name one, just one, race based favour to non-maori that maori are not entitled to? You can't because there isn't any. And as for Robin Bell saying the Education system, Government system, wtc is pakehas ways, how does that discriminate against maori? Would you prefer to lie on a dirt floor waiting for a raiding tribe to kill you? No? Thought not.

SIMPLE MINDED THINKING

Posted on 02-09-2013 19:12 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible ignores the fact that Pakeha governments have discriminated against Maori for over a hundred years. There are no special favours in law for non-Maori because they do not need them. Pakeha governments have not discriminated against Pakeha, only against Maori. That is why we now have the Waitangi Tribunal to address injustice before it occurs, not make compensation afterwards.

EDUCATION SYSTEM DISCRIMINATION

Posted on 02-09-2013 19:29 | By Peter Dey

Captain sensible asks how the education system discriminates against Maori. The statistics tell us that Maori do worse in the education system than Pakeha. One part of the reason is probably that the education system is more user friendly to Pakeha because most teachers and education administrators are Pakeha. They naturally do things in a way that suits Pakeha more and suits Maori less.

excuses for failure

Posted on 03-09-2013 13:44 | By Captain Sensible

Come on Peter, stop making lame excuses for maori failure. If refugees can arrive in this country unable to speak english and within a few years become dux of the school, or get into the top classes, why do maori fail despite billions of dollars being thrown at them? Maori do just fine in Australia with no handouts. If you do not like the "pakeha" education system, then maybe you could explain how the pre-European maori education system worked. And then while you are at it, the pre-European maori government system. I'm assuming you are aware that since signing the treaty, the life expectancy rates for maori have risen from about 25 to about 60+? I keep asking for you to name any laws that discriminate against maori today, but you keep refusing. Why?

DO NOT BLAME THE STUDENTS

Posted on 03-09-2013 15:59 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible quotes immigrants who succeed in the New Zealand education system. But their parents choose to come here. The Government has a responsibility to provide education for Maori students that is user friendly for them. So far it has not succeeded. Captain Sensible blames the Maori students. The students are not the highly paid professionals providing the education. Blaming the students is a Pakeha cop-out. You do not blame a patient if the doctor does not provide helpful treatment.

PAKEHA DECISIONS HAVE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST MAORI

Posted on 03-09-2013 16:09 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible, it is Pakeha decision makers not laws that discriminate against Maori. There are no obvious laws that discriminate against Maori. It is only in the past few years that Pakeha have accepted that Maori have a separate culture and want to retain it. It is only in recent years that Maori have been able to get education that supports their language and culture. It is only in recent years that Treaty settlements have compensated for injustice.

DOCTORS DO NOT BLAME THEIR PATIENTS

Posted on 03-09-2013 16:52 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible, doctors do not blame patients if treatment does not work. Mechanics do not blame car owners if the car is not fixed. Financial advisers do not blame clients if their advice does not work. Builders do not blame house owners if the house is not built right. Do not blame Maori students if the education professionals fail to educate them right.

No Lame excuses just fact

Posted on 03-09-2013 17:11 | By robin bell

Cap'n you know full well that targeted Maori education is a very recent initiative.The 1.law 4.all party have revealed they will reverse this policy.More and more Maori do not fail,but many of those that do,are dispirited and disallusioned.Its a problem that repeats generation after generation.You make no allowance for that fact.The current Maori led initiative is trying to reverse this trend,all N.Zers can only gain from this.Your reference to refugees is ill thought out.Immigrants usually work hard to establish themselves, nothing new there.No doubt most receive thier early education in thier native tongue.Most Maori are still denied that.Life expectancy has improved for all people,not just Maori.Consider for a moment the ramifications of your prejudice,the social cost, in your precious dollar terms will dwarf the current spending on Maori.

Still having fun Cap'n?

Posted on 03-09-2013 20:33 | By robin bell

You want to talk about Democracy.Your one man/woman analogy is far to simplistic.Democracy evolved in European mono cultural,mono racial,mono religeous countries in the main.Egalitarian democracy in that form can never be implemented in N.Z.without Maori interests being considered.N.Z.was founded in biculturalism.A form of democracy will evolve,with either a written constitution that contains the Treaty,or a negotiated agreement with Maori.You simply cannot ride roughshod over the Maori people.The world will not allow it,nor will Maori and thier supporters.Robin Bell.

IT ALL STARTS WITH EDUCATION

Posted on 03-09-2013 21:56 | By Peter Dey

Students who are failed by the education system are more likely to end up in a low paying job or no job. All the statistics tell us that more Maori are failed by the education system and have a low paying job or no job. The education system discriminates against Maori. It is not deliberate or malicious but it happens. People who ignore this but protest about special privileges are hypocrites.

facts are facts

Posted on 03-09-2013 21:59 | By Captain Sensible

Oh dear, someone forgot that maori were forever warring with each other, practiced slavery, rape, canibalism until the europeans arrived. They had no education, treated women badly, never had anything resembling democracy, no knowledge of proper health and hygiene, low life expectancy, no knowledge of conservation (eg Moas), no science but only superstition and myths, no written language nor alphabet, no numerical system, no electricity, no roads, no cars, no property.....yeah, maori were so much better off pre European !!

ROBIN BELL

Posted on 04-09-2013 12:00 | By Peter Dey

Robin, your description of democracy and its future in New Zealand is outstanding.

pre european utopia?

Posted on 04-09-2013 12:13 | By Captain Sensible

All I am hearing is excuses. Maori can do anything other humans can do. There are successful maori around to prove it. As soon as you start with the excuses and blaming others for their failure, it has the 'snowball effect'. There are people on this planet who dream of having the same opportunities maori have. BTW, you make it sound like maori lived in some kind of peaceful utopia before the Europeans arrived. I presume you have actually read a real history book? Would you really prefer slavery and war and cannibalism as opposed to "pakeha" democracy where everyone is equal?

Parenting

Posted on 04-09-2013 14:52 | By Fonzie

Is the crux of education If the children are encouraged at home then they will reach their potential if they are not then they will have an uphill battle and mostly fall by the wayside This is the most important factor laying blame everywhere else is a red herring

FONZIE, DOCTORS DO NOT BLAME THE HOME

Posted on 04-09-2013 17:32 | By Peter Dey

Fonzie, you say that the home is the crux of education. Quite true, but if your doctor's treatment does not heals your child he uses another treatment. He does not blame the home. Professional educators have a responsibility to ensure Maori educational success. Their failure to do this is discrimination against Maori, not a red herring.

No Snowball effect,

Posted on 04-09-2013 19:51 | By robin bell

the problem is being adressed,but you and your friends wish to reverse it.Cap'n all you hear are excuses is because you refuse to listen.It is very true Maori can do anything,but first they need the right stimulation and education.In a way your mate Fonz touches on the problem.For generations Maori were denied an education in thier own language.You dismiss that as unimportant,but it has critical importance.Those children went on to become parents,some successful but many,far too many not.The cycle is undeniable and continues.It is a massive problem that will only be remedied by goodwill and patience all round.Are you up for it Cap'n?

Peter Dey,

Posted on 04-09-2013 20:37 | By robin bell

Thank you Peter,you certainly set a hot pace but a good one.Keep up the good work I'm sure common sense will prevail.Robin Bell.

race based handouts must stop

Posted on 04-09-2013 21:29 | By Captain Sensible

You two are just full of excuses for maori failure. Yet maori in Australia do not need excuses because they do not fail. Again you are wrong; maori elders encouraged their kids to learn english because they could see that was the language of the future. Take responsibility for your life and your actions and stop expecting a free ride. Maori were not colonised in the last 20 years. They grew up with the same challenges as everyone else in the last near 200 years. What is it about the mentality that makes them accept they are not as good as anyone else and thus need special race based handouts?

EVENTS BEFORE THE TREATY ARE IRRELEVANT

Posted on 04-09-2013 22:20 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible keeps referring to events before the treaty of Waitangi. When the Treaty was signed Maori were promised all the rights of British citizens. Captain Sensible seems to think that just because Maori became better off that they did not have to be given the rights that they were promised. That is Pakeha dominant thinking that no fair minded person accepts.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE IS NOT ADMITTING FACT

Posted on 04-09-2013 22:58 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible says that all he is hearing is excuses. Educational discrimination against Maori is a fact not an excuse. Calling it an excuse is just misleading language to avoid admitting the fact.

race or needs based

Posted on 05-09-2013 08:14 | By Captain Sensible

Why is a poor maori considered more worthy of help than a poorer non-maori? Why should help be based on race and not need? To support race based handouts is racist is it not?

poor parenting ?

Posted on 05-09-2013 09:12 | By ow

So would Peter robin have us believe that poor parenting is irrelevant to kids wanting a good education ? He can use unrelated mechanic and doctor stories all he likes but it looks like he wants to blame everybody else but the parents. Maybe he should speak to some successful maori (made it through their own hard work)to see what they think the value of good parenting on their kids is ? And whether they think that they should have special privileges bases on their race ?

Yes cap'n Facts are Facts

Posted on 05-09-2013 10:57 | By robin bell

No one has forgotten anything,unless its you.Your description of early Maori is very similar to the history of the British.Your 'us v them'mentality blinds you believe me I know.You have a very sanitised opinion of British history,they too indulged in all the things you mention,with one exception.Contrary to what you chose to believe.With regard to cannibilism,it came in many forms for many reasons.As late as the fifteenth century physicians prescribed human flesh for some ailments.Yes Cap'n British ones.Anthropophagi is the least understood area of Anthropology,relying as it does on anecdotal myth and superstition.Perhaps you don't remember the case of the Argentinian footballers who ate parts of thier dead comrades in order to survive.You have no idea what you talk about. Robin Bell.

Tuhoe

Posted on 05-09-2013 10:58 | By YOGI BEAR

They did not even sign the Treaty so how possibly can a claim via the "treaty" be even looked at, the whole system here is corrupt! There is no justification for that claim for a start. As a comparison, if the US government paid compensation to Nixon because of harm, distress etc because Monica and Bill Clinton had a thing going on, has about the same linkage, justification and so on.

HALF-TRUTH FROM PETESE ...

Posted on 05-09-2013 11:04 | By YOGI BEAR

Janet's ramblings don't say that at all, that is really "TWINSTING THE TREATY" and some. No on ehas issue about Maori "arriving in NZ" around 1250-1450 or so. But Peter you have failed to answer with anything remotely sensible that links up how artifacts (non Maori) are in NZ from around 1500BC nearly 3000 years before even you say Maori were in NZ, Now Pete that is going to take some serious kind of back peddling isn't it?

YOGI BEAR, THERE ARE NO PE-MAORI ARTIFACTS

Posted on 05-09-2013 12:38 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR can produce no evidence of any non-Maori artefact in New Zealand that is scientifically dated before the arrival of Maori. There is none. Janet Wilmshurst dated all early settlement sites, and none had evidence of settlement before Maori arrived.

YOGI BEAR, INJUSTICE TO TUHOE IS WELL DOCUMENTED

Posted on 05-09-2013 12:53 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR is acting like a bush lawyer trying to win an argument on a technicality, when it is obvious that he is wrong. The injustice by the Government to Tuhoe is well documented. Read "Encircled Lands" by Judith Binney. Injustice deserves compensation. So Tuhoe deserve their compensation. Not signing the Treaty makes no difference.

OW, PARENTING IS RELEVANT

Posted on 05-09-2013 13:02 | By Peter Dey

Mechanics and doctors do not get away with poor quality service by blaming the customer. The education system discriminates against Maori. They get poor quality service. Neither Ow nor the professional educators can get off the hook by blaming the parents. Of course parenting makes a difference, but educators have to allow for this.

Not up for it then Cap'n

Posted on 05-09-2013 13:11 | By robin bell

Whenever youget stuck in the mire of your prejudice you resort to insulting rhetoric.Yes Maori elders encouraged an education in English.Sadly we now live with the results of the state generated child abuse that the authorities of the time introduced.Denying Maori thier language,culture, self respect and dignity.Maori are not failing as you claim,It is testament to thier ability to adapt.They now have the means to rebuild all of the above,but you Cap,n would deny them that small concession.Your not a nice Cap'n.(could someone give that bear another sleeping pill)Robin Bell.

DISCRIMINATION BY RACE NEEDS SOLUTIONS BY RACE

Posted on 05-09-2013 13:11 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible says that support for race based handouts is racist. Education discrimination against Maori is race based, but not deliberate. Finding race based solutions, like Maori schools, is perfectly sensible for a race based problem. Spending money to deal with discrimination is fairness, not a handout.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 05-09-2013 16:29 | By Captain Sensible

To say maori get poor quality education is simply not true. I have a friend who is a teacher and she tells me in a whisper all the special maori treatment. Stop the blaming and the excuses Peter. Maori get better opportunities than other kiwis but choose to waste them.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE CANNOT DENY THE FACTS

Posted on 05-09-2013 16:43 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible, you cannot deny the facts of Maori education achievement. Maori overall achieve worse than Pakeha in the education system. Education professionals are working to change this. So of course there is special Maori treatment. The situation has improved, but the education outcomes for Pakeha and Maori are not equal yet. This means that the system still discriminates against Maori

MAORI DO NOT GET BETTER OPPORTUNITIES OVERALL

Posted on 05-09-2013 16:52 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible says that Maori get better opportunities than Pakeha but waste them. He is blaming the students again. Maori students do not run a Pakeha system that suits Pakeha students better than Maori. It is Pakeha professionals that run the education system. Why does Captain Sensible think that education should be the only business where the customer gets blamed for poor results?

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE IS BEING EMOTIONAL AND IGNORING FACT

Posted on 05-09-2013 17:20 | By Peter Dey

When Captain Sensible says to stop the blaming and excuses, he is being emotional and refusing to admit to the fact that the education system discriminates against Maori. The statistics make this absolutely clear and nobody is disputing the statistics.

Maori education

Posted on 05-09-2013 18:18 | By Plonker

Huge amounts of taxpayer money are lavished on Maori, the Huntly and the Papamoa school funding experiences are typical and classic messes that evolve typically from that quarter. Did you all know that the Maori sector of the Education Department has more cars than the remainder of the Education Department. That means that 4% of the population in the Maori sector have more than the other 96%, that sounds like equality to me NOT.

MAORI PARENTING IS VERY RELEVANT

Posted on 05-09-2013 18:21 | By Plonker

The education system being propagated by Maori is certainly not helping, basically the Maori language nests are isolating Maori from the remainder of the "normal" world and by doing that the education standards drop, call it self indulgence that just gets worse.

aussie education system

Posted on 05-09-2013 19:54 | By ow

maybe peter robin could enlighten us as to his view why maori kids in australia seem to do better than so many here. Do the aussie teachers give maori kids special privileges and attention above all the other kids ?. Could it possibly be that our aussie maori parents have distanced themselves from the grievance industry and are proud of making it for themselves and want their kids to do the same?

A Whisper for the Cap'n

Posted on 05-09-2013 20:24 | By robin bell

You claim Maori get a good education,many do but most don't.The reasons are many and complex,Maori children can be traumatised by a sudden introduction to a Pakeha dominated world.Those feelings are negative and disruptive.Its no ones fault,but if we don't attempt to rectify the problems,what does that make us?Positive discrimination is one method,It doesn't disadvantage anyone.In fact it broadens everyones world.Maybe not yours Cap'n but you'll get used to It.Smarter people than you have realised this for years.Perhaps your teacher friend or you could inform us all of the "special treatment"she tells you in a whisper,PROMISE not to tell.Robin Bell.

Pete is clearly confused

Posted on 05-09-2013 21:43 | By Plonker

"DISCRIMINATION BY RACE NEEDS SOLUTIONS" is correct Peter, but to say there is "Discrimination" in education is crazy, Maori have unlimited resources and endless cars, trips and underpants for what ever purpose they desire.

Theodorus

Posted on 05-09-2013 23:13 | By Theodorus

I am still not convinced Maori originated from Tahiti,as in Tahiti the whole countryside is covered in banana,coconut and citrus plantages.Why did the Maori bring any of these plants with them to New Zealand???

MAORI ARTIFACTS

Posted on 05-09-2013 23:17 | By Plonker

The problem Janet W has is that she only inspected Maori sites and the only possible pre Maori evidence she could have chanced upon would be the odd left over bone or two, As I understand Maori were not included to leave much else behind.

More excuses!

Posted on 06-09-2013 07:28 | By Captain Sensible

Peter and Robin, please remind us of the pre-european education system that maori used to educate their children, the pre-european democracy system that obviously was better than the one we use now, and don't forget to tell us about the pre-european utopia that maori lived in. I think those rose coloured glasses you wear will never come off.

NO CONFUSION JUST FACT

Posted on 06-09-2013 08:37 | By Peter Dey

When Plonker says Maori have unlimited resources he is talking hot air, and still ignoring the statistical fact that in New Zealand Maori do worse than Pakeha in the education system. This is discrimination against Maori. It is not intentional. It is not malicious. The professionals are working to change it. But it is still there. Nobody disputes this fact.

Tax payer dollars

Posted on 06-09-2013 08:41 | By robin bell

The real damage was done years ago,and has to be rectified,that is what is happening now."Race based payments"also ended years ago.As you all know (deep down)Pakeha can no longer access these payments via cheap and perpetual lease land stolen from Maori.This is all GOOD news.Why do you now whinge when Maori are simply getting thier just deserts?I think I know.Your "GREEDY" Robin Bell

OW, MAYBE THE AUSSIE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS MORE FAIR

Posted on 06-09-2013 08:43 | By Peter Dey

Ow says that Maori students do better in Australia. If that is the case, then maybe the Australians are running an education system that does not discriminate against Maori and other minorities. This does nothing to change the fact in New Zealand the education system works better for Pakeha than for Maori. This is discrimination against Maori.

PLONKER IS WRONG ABOUT MAORI LANGUAGE EDUCATION

Posted on 06-09-2013 08:51 | By Peter Dey

Plonker claims that Maori language nests have caused education standards for Maori to drop. This is not supported by statistics. The educational standard being achieved by students in the Maori secondary schools, wharekura, is now clearly better than in the mainstream schools.

what?????

Posted on 06-09-2013 09:01 | By Captain Sensible

Quote from Robin Bell; "Maori children can be traumatised by a sudden introduction to a Pakeha dominated world". Sorry Robin but what evidence do you have on this, considering all maori are part pakeha anyway? You have just lost any credibility that you may think you had.

More excuses

Posted on 06-09-2013 09:39 | By Captain Sensible

Just when I thought I had heard the lamest excuses, Robin and Peter come out with even worse! Maori and non-maori have lived together for almost 200 years. Maori have not been living isolated lives in the mountains like PNG headhunters. When someone asks Peter or Robin if their cup is half full or half empty, their reply would be "cups are evil pakeha inventions that discriminate against maori because more are made from white china than brown. Life is so unfair because the govt does not give us free cups".

PLONKER DOES NOT UNDERSTAND SETTLEMENT SITES

Posted on 06-09-2013 09:44 | By Peter Dey

Plonker says that Janet wilmshurst only studied Maori settlements sites. She studied all early settlement sites. No early settlement sites in New Zealand were occupied before about 1250 AD, when Maori arrived.

IRRELEVANT NOT EXCUSES

Posted on 06-09-2013 09:52 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible again talks about pre-European Maori life. Pre-European Maori life is irrelevant to present day problems in education. Present day educational problems are the responsibility of present day professionals to solve. They need to produce solutions. Blaming the students is not a solution.

THEODORUS, LANGUAGE, DNA, AND RADIOCARBON SAY TAHITI

Posted on 06-09-2013 09:59 | By Peter Dey

Theodorus asks why Maori did not bring bananas, coconut, and citrus to New Zealand. They may have but the plants did not survive in the NZ climate. Scientists believe that Maori came from the Tahiti region because of language, DNA, and radiocarbon evidence.

The evidence

Posted on 06-09-2013 10:43 | By robin bell

is all around you Cap'n,you fail to see it because you chose not to.Young Maori in general find learning much easier in a Maori environment,FACT.You and your friends chose to ignore the damage the child abuse(physical and mental) commited by some of your predecessors.We still live with the results of that rubbish.The U.N.( Iknow you don't recognise)has ruled that intermarriage does not negate ethnicity.So Cap'n its not my creditability thats on the line.As usual its yours Robin Bell.

SPECIAL PRIVILEGES FOR MAORI IS A HALF-STORY

Posted on 06-09-2013 11:46 | By Peter Dey

The important point concerning education discrimination against Maori is that it is not easily fixed, so people who keep talking about special privileges for Maori, and ignore education discrimination are ignorantly one-eyed. Any special provisions designed to counter discrimination are not special privileges.

N.Zs Age of enlightenment

Posted on 06-09-2013 12:38 | By robin bell

that we are currently going through cannot be reversed by none credible contributors like the Cap'n and Plonk etc.Credibility starts with sincerity in any discussion.First you have to front up with your given names.You refuse,therefore you lack credibility,thats how life is.All any of you have is a license to insult,it's all you do.At least your misguided heroes,the not so profound David Round and his cronies use thier given names.Why don't you?Plonk and his mate Theo could do with a bit of targeted education.Don't you think Cap'n? Robin Bell.

EDUCATION DISCRIMINATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FREE CUPS

Posted on 06-09-2013 13:13 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible continues to go on about irrelevant stuff like wanting free cups, and ignores the fact that the education system discriminates against Maori. This is statistical fact. The unfairness of the education system to Maori flows on to poorer employment and income. Captain Sensible still cannot deny this.

Negative

Posted on 06-09-2013 17:18 | By Captain Sensible

You two are so full of excuses. Thank goodness you are not judges.

Catn Sensible

Posted on 06-09-2013 17:28 | By The Master

Well done sir, you yet again have stated the obvious to the "others" and they still dont get it, I can only assume that the lack of understanding comes about via a limited education such that common sense, realisium, objectivity and accountability were somehow left off the agenda at whatever school they attended. In fact on that basis they would make perfect politicians, I wonder if they are standing and which one they are, looking at the text below it is hard to compare and be sure of the diffeences, if any?

EDUCATION DISCRIMINATION IS A FREE FOR ALL TO MAORI

Posted on 06-09-2013 17:32 | By The Master

Peter deliberately ignores the fact that the education systems ‘anti-discrimination' against Maori. This is a financial fact. The overwhelming benefits of being Maori in the education system to Maori flows healthly into every conceivable pocket, crevice nock and cranny. What is sad about that is there are way more deserving persons around who on merit alone would run circles around the Maori beneficiaries a hundred times before they knew it.

What a Bunch Of

Posted on 06-09-2013 20:52 | By Blessed

RACIST people we have on here! U continue to say Maori this, Maori that. Its NOT the fault of Maori. HUMANS are nasty Warring people, Humans destroy and consume everything, it doesnt matter what colour ur skin is. We all know most maori today r of mixed Blood, yet u people just claim them being Maori, and moan about them being able to claim it, even tho YOU call them 'Maori'. Capt you say we have same privilege, thats a half truth, as i was slapped at school 4 speaking maori! also was pulled up by a policeman after milking who hurled Racist abuse to me because he thought i was a 'Maori Gang member'. I have NEVER received 'Race Based' privileges, and I AM of Tuhoe AND English decent, but hey, my skins brown, and people say, (but your maori arent u)

RACE BASED DISCRIMINATION IN NZ SCHOOLS

Posted on 07-09-2013 10:48 | By crazyhorse

Our schools are being told: - The Treaty affords Maori a dual set of rights. - Schools must consult with the local Maori community about the school's direction. - Te reo Maori should be promoted in school management (i.e. in day-to-day staff communication and admin), as well as teaching and learning. - All pupils need to learn Maori, gain knowledge and experience of important Maori concepts and customs, and understand and celebrate the place of Maori as tangata whenua. - Schools will learn to share power, control, and decision-making while validating the unique position of Maori and recognizing the contribution Maori make to education. And the Update provides useful examples of how other model schools successfully carry out their indoctrination. Why We're Concerned The Ministry's Update is very disturbing because it goes way beyond the teaching of Maori content. It is a blatant attempt to change and control the behaviour of schools, teachers and students, to promote the 'Maori world view” and to elevate 'Maori” to a superior status not afforded anyone else.

NO ATTEMPT TO ELEVATE

Posted on 07-09-2013 11:23 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse describes the Education Ministry's programme to improve the status of "things Maori" in schools as a programme to elevate "Maori" to a superior status not enjoyed by anyone else. All that is being proposed is to make "things Maori" more equal in status not superior to "things Pakeha". The only reason to object to this is the belief that Pakeha culture is superior and should always dominate Maori culture, an ignorant and unhelpful belief.

THE REAL CONCERN IS THE LOSS OF PAKEHA DOMINATION

Posted on 07-09-2013 11:38 | By Peter Dey

Writers who protest about special privileges for Maori, and ignore education discrimination against Maori, are obviously choosing a one-eyed point of view. The only explanation for this seems to be that they like the fact that Pakeha culture dominates in New Zealand and they want to keep it that way.

NO CONFUSION JUST FACT

Posted on 07-09-2013 11:48 | By The Master

Peter, funding for Maori students runs at about double that of any other student in NZ, if that is not race based discrimination then you are in Fairyland and some. The statistical fact still remains that despite the hand over fist handouts Maori are still well behind the average and dropping away. Money thrown at it is clearly not helping the 'real” problem, of course it never does, a bit like the repeat treaty claims via the Waitangi Tribunal for trumpted up claims.

AUSSIE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS MORE FAIR

Posted on 07-09-2013 11:49 | By The Master

Ow is right, Maori students do better in Australia, the reason is simple, Aussie makes no special provision for Maori, all students flow through the system and do well. I would also add that the average academic level of the students (Maori ex NZ) in Aussie is better . If that is the case, then maybe the Australians are running an education system that does not segregate Maori and other minorities. The issue for Maori is that the better students go to Aussie obviously.

NO ATTEMPT TO ELEVATE?

Posted on 07-09-2013 12:02 | By The Master

Come on Peter, the single purpose is to: - elevate so obtaining preference, priviledge, advantage and control, there was a gentleman who attempted the same thing in the 1930-1940's and very fortunately for the entire world that got dealt with all be it a bit slowly to start with. The only reason for Maori to take this track is shown clearly when Peter says ... "things Maori" more equal in status. The only reason to do this is a belief and desire to be superior and dominate all others anyway possible, this is Maori culture and is an ignorant and unhelpful belief.

N.Zs Age of enlightenment

Posted on 07-09-2013 13:11 | By The Master

Is true, many are becoming aware of the trail of ‘fairyland stories” that are currently going through that are not credible, the Cap'n and Plonk etc have truly go that all sorted, thank goodness for them saying the truth of it and enlightening the rest of us about what is really happening. Credibility starts with sincerity and truth and the RB/P show Phails miserably to include any of that, it is obvious. Sad that they chose to attack the writer and not the subject, tells you all you need to know about ‘credibility'. NZ is becoming aware of the difference between what Maori signed in 1840 and why and comparing that to now and what stories are being put forward to justify whatever.

FUNDING FOR MAORI IS NOT DOUBLE THAT FOR NON-MAORI

Posted on 07-09-2013 13:11 | By Peter Dey

The Master says that funding for Maori students runs at about double that for other students. He is talking fiction not based on any fact. He still does not deny that the education system discriminates against Maori. He just does not want to spend any more money solving the problem. He knows there is a problem but he does not want to solve it because it is not unfair to him.

The evidence

Posted on 07-09-2013 13:12 | By The Master

RB has Phailed to provide any evidence and continues to demand ‘proof' from others, RB does not realise that to make a claim there is meant to be evidence, it is her task to prove not the job of others to prove it wrong. Of course if there was evidence RB simply would have provided it years or decades ago, funny thing is we are still awaiting the dawn to arrive on that one.

SETTLEMENT SITES

Posted on 07-09-2013 13:15 | By The Master

Janet Wilmshurst did only study 'early” Maori settlements sites, she had no interest in anything prior as that would have completely changed her desired results, her research was biased and selective and ignored anything that did not fit in with the desired end answer, at least the wonderful book Twisting the Treaty clears that and much more up so the true motivations are clear as Dey.

Master of nothing

Posted on 07-09-2013 13:16 | By robin bell

Perhaps the so called master could explain to the world how 15% of the population can take the kind of control he talks about.Comparison to the Third Reich is pathetic.To "elevate"means to raise,lift up,console,refresh.The reference he makes to preference,privelige,advantage and control is all a figment of his distorted imagination,in short it's Rubbish.I SUGGEST you stick to facts instead of quoting vague anecdotal rumours from Australia.Robin Bell.

Pommeranians adrift

Posted on 07-09-2013 15:15 | By The Master

Looking into the history of RB and Peter, they are both of "old Blighty" extraction, inter married with the tribe and have a beneficial interest in prolific handouts from NZ and not the UK/Queen. Obvious that they are seeking to get themselves on the gravy train and avoid any effect on the UK Pension.

Hi-dee-hi

Posted on 07-09-2013 15:17 | By The Master

When did these guys get let out of the holiday(365 days a year) camp, where they haev to be entertained to keep out of mischief?

Enlightenment for Te master

Posted on 07-09-2013 16:35 | By robin bell

The evidence you look for is in Blessed comment.Of course as usual you will ignore it.The level of denial you indulge in is an insult to your own race.Maori children were victimised by ignorant administrators and teachers,for generations.FACT.You of course see no crime in that,and would return N.Z.to that.Do you also deny the terrible racism endured by the Chinese immigrants.Answer please.Robin Bell.

THE MASTER, THERE IS NO GRAVY TRAIN

Posted on 07-09-2013 19:22 | By Peter Dey

The Master talks about the gravy train, but this is empty mouthing because there is no evidence of any Maori gravy train. This is just abuse from people who have run out of credible arguments. Maori have received about $2 billion in Treaty settlements over the past 25 years. The Government budget for 2013 is about $100 billion. Maori receive less than 1% of Government spending. That is not a gravy train.

JANET WILMSHURST HAS TOTAL CREDIBILITY

Posted on 07-09-2013 20:34 | By Peter Dey

The Master claims that Janet Wilmshurst studied only Maori settlement sites. Janet Wilmshurst's research was published and endorsed by the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, the official science advisers to the US Government. This assures us of Janet Wilmshurst's integrity. She studied all available early settlement sites. It was other scientists that tell us these sites were Maori. She just accepted their information.

Maori here first- yea right

Posted on 08-09-2013 17:26 | By Graeme

So Peter Dey how do you explain the following: The stone city in the Waipoua forest The greek celestial calendar found on a Northland farm The carved rocks at Raglan that are clearly not Maori The Kupe stone at opononi The 4000 year old chinese rock drawings at Onetahuti in the South Island. Also your comments on the evidence in the first chapter of Ian Wisharts book "The Great Divide" would be illuminating.

GRAEME, SCIENTISTS CAN NOT ACCURATELY DATE STONES

Posted on 08-09-2013 20:19 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, the stone city, carved rocks, and other 'evidence” of pre-Maori settlement are all impossible to be dated by scientists. People, who claim to know the age of them, are deluded. Ian Wishart took evidence presented by Julius von Haast without realising that the evidence could not be dated, and Julius von Haast later changed his mind about it. Ian Wishart also ignored Janet Wilmshurst's evidence because it was undeniable, and showed that he was totally wrong.

GRAEME, IAN WISHART WAS FOOLED BY JULIUS VON HAAST

Posted on 08-09-2013 21:56 | By Peter Dey

About 1870 Julius von Haast publicly stated his belief that there was a pre-Maori civilization in New Zealand. He produced stone tools from Westland, claimed to be over 1000 years old, as evidence. About 1890 Julius von Haast publicly retracted his belief in a pre-Maori civilization in New Zealand. Ian Wishart was fooled because he read only what Julius Vogel said in 1870, not what he said in 1890. Ian Wishart wrote a whole chapter based on misinformation.

Pete repeat

Posted on 09-09-2013 09:46 | By YOGI BEAR

Peter all these things you have been saying here on this page you raised before and all those comments were all discredited, in fact you managed to do a good job on that yourself without any assistance from anyone else particularly, Others merely made the obvious more so.

Graeme is right

Posted on 09-09-2013 10:54 | By crazyhorse

Dey, you cannot deny this non maori evidence exists, who put it there and when, where did these people go? they are certainly older than 170 years, the thing that makes people suspicious is why the secrecy and fear from maori surrounding these sites, a lot of the information has been locked away, (WHY)??????

GRAEME, IAN WISHART WAS MISINFORMED

Posted on 09-09-2013 13:09 | By Peter Dey

In 'The Great Divide” Ian Wishart wrote a chapter claiming that there was a pre-Maori civilization in New Zealand. His evidence came from Julius von Haast who claimed in 1870 that some stone tools from Westland had been buried for over 1000 years. But about 1890 von Haast changed his mind. However Ian Wishart quoted only what Julius von Haast said in 1870, not what he said in 1890. So Ian Wishart's claim of a pre-Maori civilization is totally misinformed.

YOGI BEAR, RADIOCARBON EVIDENCE HAS NEVER BEEN DISCREDITED

Posted on 09-09-2013 17:45 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR, the radiocarbon evidence of Janet Wilmshurst has never been discredited. It shows that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand about 1250 AD. It can be verified. Crazyhorse, the ages of rocks cannot be determined. The radiocarbon evidence means that any human work with rocks was done by Maori after 1250 AD. Theories about pre-Maori civilization are pure supposition, not supported by any scientific evidence.

CRAZYHORSE, NON-RADIOCARBON EVIDENCE PROVES NOTHING

Posted on 09-09-2013 19:21 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, all of the physical evidence that people produce in support of pre-Maori settlement in New Zealand proves nothing because the meaning and creators are pure supposition. Scientists cannot say how old physical objects are. Only material that was once living can be carbon-dated. There is no evidence of people in New Zealand before Maori arrived, so any humanly created objects were created by Maori after 1250 AD.

More Conspiracy

Posted on 09-09-2013 19:37 | By robin bell

Ian Wishart,self confessed conspiracy theorist,born again Christian and alround joker,freely admits he doesn't necessarily beleive the things he writes about.He and his kind make thier living from those who chose to believe.No crime there.Fantasy is a growth Industry.Von Haast could not have accurately established the age of anything he found.The technology did not exist.What he or anyone else "believes" is irrelevant.Robin Bell.

With DOC'S help!!

Posted on 09-09-2013 22:15 | By crazyhorse

Why has the New Zealand "Department of Conservation" been suppressing knowledge of a huge, pre-Polynesian, stacked stone city in the Waipoua Forest of Northern New Zealand and why was the archaeological report to be withheld from the public for 75 years?

well said peter robin

Posted on 10-09-2013 08:34 | By ow

Fantasy is a growth Industry !!!! not even the slightest hint of irony there!!

Von Haast's 1890 Retraction?

Posted on 10-09-2013 08:40 | By Graeme

" However Ian Wishart quoted only what Julius von Haast said in 1870, not what he said in 1890. So Ian Wishart's claim of a pre-Maori civilization is totally misinformed." - Considering von Haast died in 1887 it would have been very difficult for him to change his mind in 1890. However he did say this in 1885 "'It is evident that the stone clubs, possessing the same form as the mere but made of hard black igneous rocks, are of a far more ancient date…they have been found in such positions that there can be no doubt as to their great age.” So Peter who is mistaken?

Ow! ow! OW!

Posted on 10-09-2013 09:16 | By robin bell

when you chose to quote out of context,its the first (well not the real first)sign of desperation.All you have to do is PROVE I'm wrong.You CAN'T.Oh dear! Robin Bell.

HIDDEN AWAY BY GOV'T ARCHAEOLOGIST!!!

Posted on 10-09-2013 17:47 | By crazyhorse

There are 105 sites around nz that Michael taylor gov't archaeologist thru Chris Carter in 2004 put as secret! in to the national archives, hidden away from the public for 65 years (WHY)????, Peter Dey is fond of conclusive radio carbon dating, a snail consumed by the inhabitants of the stone city in waipoua was dated 950ad Michael Taylor deleted the evidence, have we seen the light of Dey??? I think not, but amusing as!! so far ehh.!

QUITE RIGHT GRAEME, VON HAAST RETRACTED IN 1872 NOT 1890

Posted on 10-09-2013 19:56 | By Peter Dey

Julius von Haast in 1872 (not 1890, correct Graeme) retracted his previous belief that Moa-hunter civilization, using chipped flint tools, existed well before Maori civilization, using polished tools. Lindsay Buick in his book 'The Moa-hunters of New Zealand” on page 65 quotes Julius von Haast in 1872: 'I have to modify my former views in assuming that the Moa-hunters did not possess polished stone implements.” He accepted that Moa-hunter and Maori were the same.

ACCUSATIONS AGAINST DOC ARE FANTASY

Posted on 10-09-2013 20:09 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, people who accuse DOC of suppressing knowledge about a stone city in the Waipoua Forest have no credible basis for their claim. The only reason to complain about suppressed evidence is when you have no actual evidence and no credible witnesses at all. Also scientists cannot date stone objects. The Waipoua objects would have been created by early Maori.

GRAEME, JULIUS VON HAAST WAS MISTAKEN

Posted on 10-09-2013 20:23 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, when Julius von Haast, in 1885, believed he had stone clubs of ancient date, over 1000 years old, he was mistaken. Julius von Haast put his archaeological finds into the Canterbury Museum. As Robin Bell says, Julius von Haast did not have the technology to date his stone objects. We still do not have the technology to date those stone objects.

CRAZYHORSE, QUOTE A PROFESSIONAL ARCHAEOLOGIST

Posted on 10-09-2013 21:17 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, if there is any credibility to your claims of the Government keeping archaeology sites secret, then you should be able to quote support from the Otago University or Auckland University Archaeology Departments. No support from professional archaeologist means no credibility to your claim.

Doesn't make sense Peter

Posted on 10-09-2013 22:14 | By Graeme

"He accepted that Moa-hunter and Maori were the same." The quoted statement could equally mean that he accepted that Moa hunters had polished stone implements not that they were Maori. Doesn't reconcile with the statement von Haast made in 1885. Also from around 1885-Dr. Von Haast, F.R.S., says, in an article on the Moa-hunters, in which he judges from the polished stone implements found in the caves with the broken Moa bones, that the men who hunted the Moa lived ages ago: 'Of course it is impossible to calculate this time by even hundreds of years, but as polished stone implements have been found in New Zealand buried in littoral beds, 15 feet below the surface, in undisturbed ground over which extensive forests are growing, containing trees of enormous size, there is no doubt that the use of polished stone implements dates far back in pre-historic times.

WHO'S HIDING WHAT?

Posted on 10-09-2013 23:15 | By crazyhorse

Dey, you cannot deny Taylor archived a lot of information concerning these sites or can you???, the information unavailable for public to view is a bit like the history used by the Waitangi tribunal, all kosher, (BUT WE DON'T WANT ANY ONE TO SEE IT!!!!. Oh no here we go again!

CRAZYHORSE, TELL US WHERE TO CHECK MICHAEL TAYLOR'S EVIDENCE

Posted on 11-09-2013 12:08 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse should tell us where we can check Michael Taylor's evidence about secret archaeological sites. Claiming that you have evidence but you do not know what it is, does not make sense.

GOVERNMENT NEGOTIATIONS WITH PRIVATE GROUPS ARE NOT PUBLIC

Posted on 11-09-2013 13:20 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse keeps resenting the public being excluded from Treaty settlement negotiations. Maori tribes are private groups like SkyCity. They are entitled to non-public negotiations. The public gets full reports of decisions. That is democratic. The Government is elected to act on our behalf. They are entitled to exclude the public from their meetings.

Ask Michael Taylor your self!

Posted on 11-09-2013 14:27 | By crazyhorse

Michael taylor was working for the Gov't, that was my point Dey, the facts concerning these sites has been locked away from public view, I have know idea about sites, the fact is information has been archived for 75 years, WHY? WHY? www.elocal.co.nz/view_Article~id~485%20%20%20%20%20%20%20.html READ THE ACTUAL ARCHIVE ORDER DEY, you live in a dream world.

TWO SHELLS OUT OF THOUSANDS IS NOT CONCLUSIVE

Posted on 11-09-2013 15:02 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse seems to want to bring up two shells carbon-dated at 900 AD, out of thousands of shells, as evidence of pre-Maori settlement, kept secret by Michael Taylor. These shells were dated in the 1980's when radiocarbon testing was less reliable, and might be contaminated by foreign material. This is not credible evidence. What about the thousand other shells there not dated at 900 AD?

LOOK REAL CLOSE DEY

Posted on 11-09-2013 17:45 | By crazyhorse

If anyone goes to the site I provided and has a good look at this archive document, you will see what site is being archived, for how long, by who and signed, this is not a fantasy, get off your knees, stop wringing your hands, have a look Dey, even an extremist apologist such as your self must look at the facts sooner or later.

CRAZYHORSE, THE WAIPOUA STONE CITY CANNOT BE DATED

Posted on 11-09-2013 21:29 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse quotes an elocal article from December 2011 as though it has credible evidence about the Waipoua 'stone city”. Janet Wilmshurst's radiocarbon evidence was published in January 2011. It showed scientifically and verifiably that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand about 1250 AD. The elocal article ignores the radiocarbon evidence, and pretends that undateable rocks can actually prove something. This is nonsense.

JULIUS VON HAAST'S INTERPRETATION WAS FLAWED

Posted on 11-09-2013 22:09 | By Peter Dey

Julius von Haast made it clear in 1872 that he no longer believed that there was an ancient pre-Maori civilization. His description of some tools as prehistoric was based on circumstantial evidence which we now know was flawed. He was proved wrong on a number of occasions. He was not a credible source of information for Ian Wishart.

GRAEME, EVERYBODY IGNORES ONE OBVIOUS EXPLANATION

Posted on 11-09-2013 22:25 | By Peter Dey

Julius von Haast was given two stone adzes from Bruce Bay that he was told were found 15 feet below the surface in undisturbed ground over which extensive forests were growing. He did not find the adzes himself. We do not know their history for certain. Most likely the miners who gave Julius von Haast the adzes simply made up a story that they knew he wanted to hear.

Never neverland

Posted on 12-09-2013 00:50 | By Crash test dummies

Crazyman, it seems your mate Pete has yet to understand what FACTS are, many a hallow word many a hollow idea and it is now clearly evidenced that: Pete quotes selectively any convenient thing hinted at as gospel. Yet when invited to "see" he can between then accept the obvious things in front of him. It is indeed a sad situation that such a person is allowed out ... But I guess that is democracy and all that.

JAFFA, RADIOCARBON IS FACT, ROCK THEORIES ARE NOT FACT

Posted on 12-09-2013 11:39 | By Peter Dey

JAFFA does not seem to realise that the radiocarbon evidence of Janet Wilmshurst is clear, scientific, and verifiable fact. Any evidence inconsistent with the radiocarbon evidence is not credible and has some other explanation. The radiocarbon evidence shows that Maori got here first about 1250 AD. So, man-made rock formations were all constructed by Maori after 1250 AD.

Crazy.Has got the trots

Posted on 12-09-2013 16:24 | By robin bell

In desperation our favorite horse resorts to trotting out more and more conspiracy theory.His latest effort the best by far,"SNAILS"yes folks two old snail shells.Proof positive of a pre Maori civilisation.In the immortal words of the great John McEnroe,"you can not be serious".The magazine he refers to is,You guessed it,a conspiracy blog.Written by Micheal Botur,Master in Creative writing.Not a science Deegree in sight,a journalist.Peter Dey has systematicaly destroyed all of your fantacies.Perhaps D.O.C.didn't want hoards of people and mad horses wrecking the bush and tramping over the snail shells.Just a thought.Robin Bell.

Carcass

Posted on 12-09-2013 17:02 | By Carcass

Looking at Peter Day & Robin Bell comments were these guys born in N Z

AH MR BELL I PRESUME

Posted on 12-09-2013 18:08 | By crazyhorse

I was wondering where you were Bell, did you get locked away for barking all night again, you can say what you like about the stone city in Waipoua forest,BUT! why is all the information dealing with this site classified, not to be opened for 75 years, Dey said its all the work of maori, I thought if that was the case it would be opened up for tourism, shown off to the world, that archive document is genuine, like it or not, great hearing from you Rubby!!!

Von Haast's Retraction?

Posted on 12-09-2013 18:24 | By Graeme

"Julius von Haast made it clear in 1872 that he no longer believed that there was an ancient pre-Maori civilization. His description of some tools as prehistoric was based on circumstantial evidence which we now know was flawed. He was proved wrong on a number of occasions. He was not a credible source of information for Ian Wishart" If Von Haast retracted in 1872 why was he still claiming earlier inhabitation in 1885?

BORN IN NEW ZEALAND, CARCASS

Posted on 12-09-2013 19:03 | By Peter Dey

Carcass, understanding that the NZ Government has a history of injustice against Maori, Treaty settlements are fair, Maori are indigenous, the cost of Treaty settlements is small, the education system discriminates against Maori, special privileges for Maori are trivial, the English version of the Treaty is legitimate, and Maori culture will never make Pakeha into second class citizens all come from being born in New Zealand.

JULIUS VON HAAST DID NOT WANT TO BE SEEN BACKING DOWN

Posted on 12-09-2013 21:33 | By Peter Dey

Deeply buried adzes were produced by Julius von Haast in 1868 as evidence of a pre-Maori civilization. In 1872 when he retracted his belief in a pre-Maori civilization the story of the adzes no longer made sense. It seems that he simply carried on with the adze story because he refused to give his critics the satisfaction of seeing him back down.

Worbling ...

Posted on 12-09-2013 22:04 | By Crash test dummies

Peyers words "

Peters word wanderings

Posted on 12-09-2013 22:15 | By Crash test dummies

You are making up stories now. You have said that "Janet warbling" carbon dating ... Before you said others gave her info. Maybe u should go back and read what u have alresdy made up then written as you have contradicted yourself ... The whole thing must be really confusing for you, can you see your problem PS Janet did not do any reserach on any thing, all she did was select data that suited the conclusion required to keep the funding package alive.

CRAZYHORSE, THE WAIPOUA DOCUMENTS ARE NO LONGER SECRET

Posted on 12-09-2013 22:28 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, the Celtic NZ website says that the Waipoua documents are no longer secret. However it seems that nobody has found anything in these documents that contradicts Janet Wilmshurst's radiocarbon evidence, that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand. Certainly radiocarbon evidence is still credible and verifiable. Rocks cannot be dated.

ONLY 2 SNAIL SHELLS

Posted on 13-09-2013 08:01 | By crazyhorse

Scientific evidence from carbon dating has come from a lot less than a couple of shells, if those shells had been carbon dated in 1988 or when ever they should have been kept in a museum or where ever, things like this are always kept for further testing later on, where's the shells Bell.

Contradiction

Posted on 13-09-2013 08:08 | By Graeme

"JULIUS VON HAAST DID NOT WANT TO BE SEEN BACKING DOWN" Peter Dey did you read what you wrote? First you say Von Haast retracted his belief in a pre-Maori civilisatin in 1872 and then you say he carried on with the adze story so that his critics would not see him back down. Give me a break and stop making it up as you go along.

Dey mate Janet Warbling

Posted on 13-09-2013 09:18 | By crazyhorse

Jaffa hits the nail or in this case the researcher on the head, Janet Wilmhurst, as are the other researchers used by gov't or iwi to come up with their version of history are big name highly paid people who cannot afford to back down on any of their findings, in years to come there are going to be a lot of red faces, all of them so called high profile historians and researchers, the only thing the likes of (Damage Orange) should be put in charge of is an ice cream stand.

Julius----Graeme.

Posted on 13-09-2013 09:23 | By robin bell

In an adress to the Philosophical Institute of N.Z. in 1885.By his own admission he was not conversant with the history of Moriori " ancient" inhabitants of the Chatham Islands.He was curious about Patu both rough finished and polished.The methods used to tie the handles was "identical to that of Maori" His mentor Mr Shand states the Maori and Moriori are both part of the original departure from Hawaiki.Shown by thier traditions,legends etc.At no time does he speak of earlier civilisations.There is no "evidence of any kind to prove other civilisations.You clutch at straws. Robin Bell.

JULIUS VON HAAST CONTRADICTED HIMSELF

Posted on 13-09-2013 09:47 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, there is plenty that you can read about Julius von Haast. He was forced to accept in 1872 that his theory of a pre-Maori civilization was not correct. So, his adzes that he said were pre-historic on doubtful evidence, no longer made sense, but he kept on saying they were prehistoric, even though in all his archaeological digs he only ever found Maori artefacts.

JAFFA IS WRITING FICTION ABOUT JANET WILMSHURST

Posted on 13-09-2013 10:12 | By Peter Dey

JAFFA says that Janet Wilmshurst did not do research on anything. This is fiction. Janet Wilmshurst's research was published by the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, available on the internet. She dated all available early settlement sites and found that about 1250 AD was the earliest date. The evidence of other scientists shows these sites to be all Maori.

Conspiracy theorists

Posted on 13-09-2013 10:27 | By Good day

Conspiracy theorists always come across as crazy. You need to get on tv with your comments they are great, how do you translate your gibberish into something that people will actually think is relevant, you just tangle your message up in crazy talk, emotive opinion, racist rant, and comedy, it is entertaining for a while, but it gets tiresome, oh well if you have time on your hands and nothing to do........

CRAZYHORSE,

Posted on 13-09-2013 10:28 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse is wasting his time with snail shells. The latest radiocarbon dating has been done with tree twigs. They are more reliable than sea shells. Scientists will find no credible evidence now in two 1988 snail shells.

GRAEME, JULIUS VON HAAST'S UNDATEABLE ADZES PROVE NOTHING

Posted on 13-09-2013 13:41 | By Peter Dey

Whatever Julius von Haast may have said, the adzes that he claimed to have found deep under thousand year old forest, could never be dated. Ian Wishart proved nothing by quoting them. The radiocarbon evidence that Ian Wishart ignored shows no human settlement here before 1250 AD. Any human tools found here came after 1250 AD. Julius von Haast's undateable adzes prove nothing.

Pistol Pete

Posted on 13-09-2013 15:37 | By Crash test dummies

Fire off but fotgot the facts and what said before repsaying the errors and contradictions they all others than messes Bell and Dey need to catch up on.

Von Haast's Retraction?

Posted on 13-09-2013 20:22 | By Graeme

Julius----Graeme. Posted on 13-09-2013 09:23 | By robin bell. Can you post a link for this address to the philosophical society?

Graeme

Posted on 14-09-2013 09:14 | By robin bell

Google Julius von Haast,Wikipedia,link to "On Stone Weapons of Maori and Moriori.Robin Bell.

Von Haast

Posted on 14-09-2013 12:33 | By Graeme

"Julius von Haast,Wikipedia,link to "On Stone Weapons of Maori and Moriori.Robin Bell." I read the article you cited and in my opinion the overall impression is not one retraction of the existence of older civilisations at all.He actually seems to conclude that the weapons in question were "ancient"

Fifty Shades Of Grey

Posted on 14-09-2013 13:49 | By robin bell

Do you not think that in such an address Julius would have at least refered to pre Moriori- Maori civilisations.I did not claim it as a retraction by him.You are correct he did conclude some were "ancient".Perhaps you should check the difinative meaning of "ancient".Websters gives it as Ancient=Old,of long standing,having existed from times past.Specific in (Law) enjoyed without interuption for Twenty years or more.So you see Graeme lots of Grey areas,only facts count.Robin Bell.

Grey areas Robin

Posted on 14-09-2013 14:46 | By Graeme

Lots of grey area's is right. My original post on this issue asked about several of them. You and Peter Dey focused on Ian Wishart's quoting of Von Haast. What about Professor Tane and the Dao cave drawings for example. My point is that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence for civilisations in NZ prior to the arrival of the great fleet. There needs to be some intensive research done. It reminds me of the denial by all of the so called experts that dinosaurs ever lived in NZ until a determined amateur proved them wrong. Do you and Peter Dey have something to gain by so strenuously denying the existence of a pre-Maori population?

PROTECTED AREAS NOT GREY

Posted on 14-09-2013 19:15 | By crazyhorse

The Kaimanawa wall and Waipaua stone city are two of NZ mysteries, maori won't even let DOC near the Kaimawa wall now, maori never cut stone, certainly not as accurately as the stone on these two sites, Dey said maori built these, maori love to make money, they are sitting on two sites a lot or archaeologists would love to study or people would like to visit, tourism, lots'a bucks to be made, but no, why?????

Circumstantial

Posted on 14-09-2013 20:47 | By robin bell

Doesn't cut it Graeme.The questions you ask cannot be answered.Peter and I simply ask for proof of your claims.You offer none.You have dropped Julius because you know you can't prove your point.There is no denial on our part we simply go with the "PROVEN"Status quo.When you seek to overthrow that you need conclusive proof.Conspiracy blogs won't cut it.For instance Crazyhorse claims Maori never cut stone,that is just ludicrous,the quality of their work is legendry.Perhaps Crazy should try making a Pounamu Mere. Robin Bell.

WHY BELL

Posted on 15-09-2013 09:07 | By crazyhorse

If maori could cut stone so perfectly like the stones in the Kaimanawa wall why did they not build their dwellings the same way, early stone Mere were roughly shaped with a hole at the handle end, as far as the intricately carved and polished green stone items your talking about, well they started getting made with the help of European iron tools, I think the green stone stuff your talking about all nicely polished and shaped has been done by a die grinder. Legendary is right ,maybe just legend is more accurate.

Crazy and the die grinder,

Posted on 15-09-2013 11:20 | By robin bell

Many peoples of the world at some time built stone dwellings and other things like er! walls for protection.Most eventually abandoned that method in favour of wood and other easier worked materials."FACT"Julius von Haast talked about,quote,"Shand observes that he need not remark that the operation(grinding) was tedious in the extreme.On the other hand there were a number of beautifully finished axes(toki)that must have taken an infinate amount of time and SKILL to get into such perfect shape"Yet again Crazy your prejudice blinds you.Robin Bell.

Circumstantial

Posted on 15-09-2013 14:54 | By Graeme

Robin I can see that it is a waste of time debating with you and Peter. It is not up to me to prove anything to you. I have simply said that there is a lot of evidence available which should be thoroughly investigated by someone without an agenda. As crazyhorse says if there was nothing to hide this would not be an issue. I do note though that you keep ignoring Professor Tane's evidence. I haven't made my mind up on this issue either way and it is actually irrelevant in terms of the relentless drive towards separatism by some part Maori that is going on in this country.

APOLOGIES GRAEME, JULIUS VON HAAST DID NOT RETRACT HIS ADZES

Posted on 15-09-2013 19:46 | By Peter Dey

Apologies Graeme, it seems that Julius von Haast retracted some things but not that his adzes were very ancient. However modern radiocarbon evidence (Janet Wilmshurst) proves that there is no evidence of settlement in New Zealand before 1250 AD. This means that adzes, rock formations and drawings are not evidence of pre-Maori settlement. There are alternative explanations for all of them. What evidence did Professor Tane produce?

Professor Tane

Posted on 15-09-2013 22:38 | By Graeme

http://elocal.co.nz/view_Article~id~164~title~Evidence_of_NZ_Occupation_4,000_Years_Ago.html

ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY

Posted on 16-09-2013 09:14 | By crazyhorse

Just been studying Janet Wilmhursts findings on early NZ maori occupation. This is the only woman on earth who has a carbon dating machine that works and is accurate, so this must be all true Dey, you said that early maori were very caring for the invironment, specifically you said there was no burning of forest, Janet Wilmhurst has said Polynesians started burning in the south island as soon as they arrived, in the end deforesting 40% of the south island causing erosion and sending nutrients into water ways, I bet the carbon dating machine wasn't working on this particular Dey.

Graeme,

Posted on 16-09-2013 09:38 | By robin bell

It's never a waste of time debating.However this is not the best forum to do it.As you are aware no doubt these columns get hijacked by far more extreme people than you Peter and myself.You seem to have an open mind,yet you refer to "part Maori"seperatism.I would love to prove to you how wrong you are.Do Maori purposely hide things?or are they just sick and tired of being pushed around.I can give you numerous examples of that.I would gladly welcome a debate between you and a fellow thinker and Peter and myself.Is it possible? Robin Bell.

the barrel

Posted on 16-09-2013 10:20 | By Captain Sensible

Dey and Bell get caught out time and again. Anyone who says "Maori children can be traumatised by a sudden introduction to a Pakeha dominated world" has no credibility whatsoever. It's just excuses followed by more excuses and as we can see, the bottom of the barrel is getting a good scraping.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE STILL ARGUES TRIVIA NOT THE MAIN POINTS

Posted on 16-09-2013 11:53 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible talks about getting caught out time and again, but he has never been able to refute the main points which are that the education system discriminates against Maori students, and that there is no radiocarbon evidence (Janet Wilmshurst) of any pre-Maori settlement in New Zealand.

CRAZYHORSE HAS LOST THE PLOT OVER JANET WILMSHURST

Posted on 16-09-2013 12:01 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse makes claims about deforestation in the South Island and Janet Wilmshurst. Whether these claims are true or not they are irrelevant to her research that showed no pre-Maori settlement in New Zealand. Her research was published by the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, science adviser to the United States Government. Her integrity and credibility are unquestioned.

GRAEME, RADIOCARBON AND DNA EVIDENCE IS IRREFUTABLE

Posted on 16-09-2013 12:16 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, in criminal trials nobody attempts to refute DNA evidence. Similarly nobody attempts to refute modern radiocarbon evidence. This means that Profesor Tane and his rock drawings is presenting us with a mystery but not evidence. The drawings cannot be dated, so they can prove nothing. The elocal article actually says they could be Maori.

Still in the Mire Cap'n.

Posted on 16-09-2013 12:53 | By robin bell

Go back to "A Whisper for the Cap'n.05-09-2013.Read it again and it just might penetrate what little brain you possess (Doubtfull but you never can tell)Still hav'nt informed us about the content of your friends little "whisper" Did it really happen or was it just another pipe dream?Guess we'll never know.Robin Bell.

Barrels Cap'n.

Posted on 16-09-2013 15:37 | By robin bell

It's a well known "fact"that at some time or other most seamen had to spend time in the barrel.Perhaps the good Cap'n could clarify whether or not that is the barrel he refers to.If it is it could explain much about the Cap'ns bitter and twisted outlook on life.They do say it can be very traumatic. Robin Bell.

DEY LOSES PLOT OVER WILMHURST

Posted on 16-09-2013 16:25 | By crazyhorse

I didn't say anything about premaori settlement, you have said on a number of occasions maori did no burning in fact you said they actually looked after the environment the lived in, you keep quoting this woman but seems only when it suites, read all about it. http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/science/plants-animals-fungi/ecosystems/prehistoric-settlement/deforestation

Dao drawings

Posted on 16-09-2013 19:35 | By Graeme

Peter if you read the article properly you would have noted that it is only Professor Tane that has studied these drawings in detail.This quote dates the drawings "At the southern centre of Dao culture in Jiangxi Province, there was immediate recognition and unequivocal response. The Dao scholars identified the imagery as belonging to Dao cultural iconography common in China 4500 years ago." and "the Dao scholars were unaware of the origins of the imagery until after they had provided their response."

@ Robin Bell

Posted on 16-09-2013 19:57 | By Captain Sensible

I am indeed a seafarer and I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in reference to seafarers spending time in barrels. I know you regularly get myth and truth mixed up! And regarding the whisper, well some kind of 'Education Inspector' arrived at my friends school and the first words she said were "what extra are you doing for maori". She had no interest in the other 85% of the kids, just spent her entire inspection ensuring maori got special race based privileges and favours that was denied to the remaining 85% of the kids. Don't you squirm with embarrassment when you hear that sort of racism Robin?

EVERY ONE CAN READ THE ARTICLE THANKS TO SUNLIVE GRAEME

Posted on 16-09-2013 20:32 | By crazyhorse

http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~164~title~Evidence_of_NZ_Occupation_4,000_Years_Ago.html

CRAZYHORSE, YOU ARE MISQUOTING JANET WILMSHURST

Posted on 16-09-2013 21:40 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, the article that you refer to, about deforestation by Maori, says nothing about Maori burning 40% of the South Island. Is there a later article that shows the results of scientific research? You should not get over excited by comments about Maori being the first settlers here. You have written a great deal about possible evidence of pre-Maori settlement.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, ANTI-DISCRIMINATION IS NOT RACISM

Posted on 16-09-2013 21:51 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible, if an education department officer wants to see school planning to improve Maori education achievement that is because professional educators know that the education system discriminates against Maori students, and they want to change that. That is not racism. Maori students are being helped to catch up, not get ahead. That is an effort to be fair.

PROFESSOR TANE GIVES US A MYSTERY NOT A SOLUTION

Posted on 16-09-2013 22:02 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, certainly the origin of the Dao style drawings in New Zealand is a mystery. But just like Julius von Haast, Professor Tane does not have a solution. If there were Chinese people here 4500 years ago, how did they get here, and why did they leave no evidence of settlements? Undated drawings are a mystery not evidence.

IT SEEMS THAT JANET WILMSHURST IS NOW A CREDIBLE AUTHORITY

Posted on 16-09-2013 22:25 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse is now quoting Janet Wilmshurst's research into Maori deforestation. Captain Sensible talks about being wrong time and time again. However anybody, but him, who reads page 296 of "Twisting the Treaty" can see that the authors accept Janet Wilmshurst's research showing that Maori were first settlers in New Zealand. She is totally credible. Any theories contradicted by her results are not credible.

DEY THE ONLY ONE THAT MISS QUOTES

Posted on 17-09-2013 10:14 | By crazyhorse

Dey you originally said maori did not deforest, I don't know if maori were or were not here first, im just interested in all that has been found. Here is the article about 40% of forests gone, she is your guardian angel, you cannot pick and choose her evidence as you see fit. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2643540/posts

Mystery not a solution

Posted on 17-09-2013 10:41 | By Graeme

Precisely my point Peter. If you read Professor Tane's comment under the elocal article you would have seen that he is aware of other sites and evidence. This is why we need to see some real research done on this and the other sites around the country that point to there being people here thousands of years ago. Research done by people with open minds and with full publication of all of the results. Personally I find this topic fascinating and in my view we have a right to know the full history of this country as far as it it possible to uncover it.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 17-09-2013 12:10 | By Captain Sensible

So Peter, are you suggesting that ONLY maori need special help? What about the non-maori who are not achieving? And what about the maori that are doing well at school? You support racism...as is confirmed by your approval of only part maori getting special attention, as opposed to all the children that need special attention.

RACISM IS THE BELIEF THAT SOME RACES ARE SUPERIOR TO OTHERS

Posted on 17-09-2013 12:22 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible seems to share the mistaken view of "Twisting the Treaty" that racism is "determining things racially rather than for the general good". Most dictionaries define racism as "the belief that some races are inherently superior or inferior". Programmes to help Maori students simply recognise that culture makes a difference and should be allowed for. Nobody is saying that Maori are superior.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 17-09-2013 13:08 | By Captain Sensible

Oh dear, Peter Dey is getting confused! In his headline "CAPTAIN SENSIBLE, ANTI-DISCRIMINATION IS NOT RACISM", he is forgetting which side he is on!!! He approves of discrimination against all non-maori in NZ, by dishing out favours and privileges to his chosen race.....which IS discrimination. I think handouts should be based on need thus not discriminating against any race. He thinks it should be race based. Maybe you want to change that misleading title Peter?

Cap'n Incredible

Posted on 17-09-2013 13:16 | By robin bell

The barrel "exists"in the world of fantasy and humour Cap'n just like the one you quoted.You have not,nor can you produce any credible evidence of the "race based privilege" you and your mates constantly refer to.There is none.A seven word comment by an Inspector simply won't cut it.(Ithink you added the "extra" bit.)If you take off your racist blinkers,you will see the advantages Maori children get from targeted assistance.None disadvantage Pakeha children.All benifit society in general.(maybe not racists though)You have to admit Cap'n its not too clever bringing up your grandchildren to be as narrow minded as yourself.These thing have a habit of backfiring.(If you need a sale for the blinkers Crazy maybe interested,I see he's still touting his conspiracy blogs. Robin Bell.

DOING NOTHING

Posted on 17-09-2013 15:24 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible thinks that nothing special should be done to remove education discrimination against Maori. This means that he thinks that Maori education failure is the fault of Maori. Does he think that Maori are an inferior race? Education professionals think that Maori are not inferior, and that the education system is at fault.

DNA

Posted on 17-09-2013 15:27 | By robin bell

Is it not possible Graeme that given Maori have been D.N.A.linked to Taiwan and from there to southern China,that is distinctly possible that Dao influence still remained in early Maori artforms.It's not proof,but then neither is Prof.Tanes hypothesis.It may be good enough for people like Crazy who appears desperate to prove Maori were not the first people to arrive in N.Z.I can't imagine why,but he's failing badly,But I think you will agree that the evidence Peter and I provide is just as,if not more credible.Robin Bell.

A confused Cap'n.

Posted on 17-09-2013 19:04 | By robin bell

In the bicultural founding of N.Z.Maori were guaranteed thier ethnicity,culture and language.Sadly this was not practised by the ruling majority(Pakeha).That is what is now being addressed.You and your friends would reverse this process.This makes you look like racists,are you racists Cap'n?Your obsession whith the word discrimination is interesting,considering the positive discrimination Pakeha enjoyed for generations.All aspects of life in N.Z. was and still is controlled by Pakeha.Now when the sensible majority attempt to redress this imbalance,in a very minor way you object in the most vitriolic way.Why?

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE

Posted on 17-09-2013 20:12 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible's comments are always half-truth because he chooses to ignore the fact that the education system discriminates against Maori. Measures to help Maori students are not favours and privileges. They are responses to need that take account of cultural differences. Captain Sensible seems to believe that nothing should be done about education discrimination against Maori.

MAORI BURNT

Posted on 17-09-2013 20:27 | By Peter Dey

I do not believe I said, on a number of occasions, that Maori did not burn forest. Janet Wilmshurst makes it clear now that they did. So what? That is a side issue. The basic issues are that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand, that the education system discriminates against Maori, and that Treaty settlements are justified and affordable.

GRAEME, PROFESSIONAL ARCHAEOLOGISTS

Posted on 17-09-2013 20:35 | By Peter Dey

Professional archaeologists from Otago University and Auckland University do not seem interested in studying ancient sites that look pre-Maori. Maybe it is because they accept the radiocarbon evidence that shows that sites that look pre-Maori cannot be pre-Maori because there was nobody here before Maori arrived.

The excuses keep coming

Posted on 17-09-2013 21:15 | By Captain Sensible

The excuses keep coming from Dey and Bell. Take a look at yourselves in the mirror. Take some responsibility for your own lives. Stop expecting the race based favours and privileges. Who knows...you may get better self esteem from it. BTW, still waiting for you to tell us how education discriminates against part maori, when every other race on the planet seems to cope with education. Are you going to tell us that the pre-european maori utopia had better education?

Professional Archaeologists?

Posted on 17-09-2013 21:43 | By Graeme

You are clutching at straws Peter. The Chinese cave paintings do not need carbon dating. They are apparently Dao from some 4000 years ago. Why are you so against proper research being done? What is it that you are afraid of?

Anything is possible Robin

Posted on 17-09-2013 22:13 | By Graeme

"Is it not possible Graeme that given Maori have been D.N.A.linked to Taiwan and from there to southern China,that is distinctly possible that Dao influence still remained in early Maori artforms" Anything is possible but I would suggest that it is not very probable that the exact designs used by the Dao survived through 3000 years of migration first to somewhere in the Pacific then to NZ. This is why the research needs to be done.

GRAEME, NOT AGAINST PROPER RESEARCH

Posted on 17-09-2013 22:20 | By Peter Dey

I have nothing against proper research. But if the professional archaeologists do not want to do research of sites that are said to be pre-Maori then it probably means that they have already considered it, and know that it would be a waste of time. Things that can not be accurately carbon-dated can never have their age determined.

EDUCATION STATISTICS CAPTAIN SENSIBLE

Posted on 17-09-2013 22:30 | By Peter Dey

The ministry of education statistics make it quite clear that Maori students do less well in education achievement. The education system is run by Pakeha professionals. It is less successful for Maori students than for Pakeha. This is discrimination against Maori. It probably occurs when Pakeha teachers provide a poorer learning environment for Maori students.

EDUCATION DESCRIMINATES AGAINST NON MAORI

Posted on 17-09-2013 22:37 | By crazyhorse

Whats wrong with you Dey, maori have their own education system, whats your problem, what are you after, Kohanga Reo, maori, maori only courses, maori only curriculum in many classes, university courses for maori only or given to maori with lower marks than non maori, education facilities such as Waiariki in Rotorua, with maori only courses, all tax payer funded, even the nursing training here has separate blocks for maori, APARTHEID is growing like a cancerous tumour in any gov't run institution in NZ.

THEY ONLY LOOK LIKE DAO

Posted on 17-09-2013 23:42 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, cave paintings in New Zealand were not done before 1250 AD because there is no evidence of people living in New Zealand before 1250 AD. Paintings that look like Dao paintings are not evidence of anything until they can be scientifically dated. They are not Dao paintings. They just look like Dao paintings.

@ Graeme

Posted on 18-09-2013 07:29 | By Captain Sensible

You are right Graeme; I also wonder why they are so afraid of the facts or looking for the truth. If they spent half as much time taking responsibility as they do making excuses, they probably wouldn't need excuses...as the successful maori in Australia have proved.

EARLY MAORI PILLAGED NATURE

Posted on 18-09-2013 08:16 | By crazyhorse

The guardianship argument is still being used by the Maori Party despite overwhelming evidence that early Maori burned about half of the forest that covered the South Island in a reckless quest for food. An article in the Wanganui Chronicle on Thursday with Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia's byline on it voiced opposition to proposed changes to the Resource Management Act partly because they 'undermine the role of Maori as tangata tiaki of their traditional rohe”. http://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/mike-butler-early-maori-pillaged-nature.html

Graeme and the cap'n

Posted on 18-09-2013 09:08 | By robin bell

You are both hung up on the abstract.Graeme seems to have completely accepted the "possible"link of cave paintings to Chinese or more precisely Dao.Problem being ,you nor anyone else has yet proven it.The research you crave would be tedious and costly.To what end?It won't change anything.What happened in N.Z.4000yrs ago is irrelevent to our current problems.As for the cap'n.No one is making excuses for anything.You lecture us on taking responsibility.You know nothing about our lives,If you did you would know what a fool you are.The damage done years ago by you and your ilk is still with us today.The Gov'nt is redressing all of that.People like you would reverse that but you never will.Your constant obsession with pre european Maori is both crass and childish.Grow up!Robin Bell

Self esteem Cap'n.

Posted on 18-09-2013 10:05 | By robin bell

Perhaps you could explain to the "world" how you personally extract "self esteem" from THE USE OF A NICK-NAME to hide behind.Please don't ignore this request Cap'n.It is very,very important.Your freind,Robin Bell.

DAO PAINTINGS, PURE SPECULATION

Posted on 18-09-2013 11:17 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, Professor Tane's claim that the Opihi rock paintings were painted by a Chinese artist in 4500 BC is unbelievable speculation, totally contradicted by radiocarbon evidence. The paintings are so simple that they could have been done by anybody. Nobody can provide a scientifically credible date for the paintings, or provide any credible evidence of how a Chinese artist got here and left no evidence of settlement behind.

MAORI CULTURE IS NOT APARTHEID

Posted on 18-09-2013 12:45 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse is confused, thinking that Maori schools and separate courses is discrimination against non-Maori and apartheid. Crazyhorse still does not deny that the education system works worse for Maori than for Pakeha. That is discrimination against Maori. Maori schools and Maori courses take nothing away from Pakeha, and do not give Maori control over Pakeha. Apartheid in New Zealand is a Crazyhorse fantasy.

maori only colleges

Posted on 18-09-2013 17:32 | By crazyhorse

If you google maori colleges, they come up every where, and all universities offer special scholarships taught by maori for maori only, check out the university of Canterbury,! (Kia Ora. When you begin your studies at UC you will be well-supported by the M?ori Development Team. They provide the best academic, cultural and social support to ensure your enjoyment and success throughout your studies. On the UC M?ori Students website you'll find really useful information such as the Te Oho ?koranga (TOA) monthly newsletter, access information for the Te Puna M?tauraka programme and contact details for the M?ori Development Team. At the College of Education we provide additional services for our M?ori students. Te Puna i Te OraTe Puna i Te Ora Te Puna i Te Ora is the College of Education M?ori students study centre. Te Puna is available to M?ori students studying teacher education and provides study space, access to computers, teaching resources, kitchen facilities and a friendly support network for students. M?ori oriented activities and events are held regularly during the year and many students come to Te Puna to experience the cultural diversity of M?ori in education. M?ori students at the College of Education can gain after-hour card access to Te Puna. For more information contact the M?ori Education Support Coordinator, Tamara Kirwan . Tamara KirwanTamara Kirwan M?ori Education Support Coordinator (03) 364 2987 ext 44126 [email protected] Te Puna i Te Ora College of Education Courses of particular interest to M?ori photo of Whakapiki students Hoaka Pounamu - Graduate Diploma in bilingual and immersion teaching All our Early Childhood, Primary and Secondary Teacher Education Programmes have bicultural elements. Scholarships For M?ori students wishing to study at the College of Education, there is a range of scholarships available. More Information More information about University activites and support is available at M?ori Students. For more information about the College of Education email [email protected] or phone 0800 VARSITY (827 748). De

Twisted Logic

Posted on 18-09-2013 20:13 | By Graeme

Peter Dey says that the South Island cave painting can't be Dao because nobody has proven that people were in NZ prior to 1250, they just look Dao. So somehow coincidentally some Maori residents sometime since 1250 just happened to produce cave paintings identical to early Dao symbols. Seems unlikely to me.

Obseesion Robin?

Posted on 18-09-2013 20:23 | By Graeme

"Your constant obsession with pre european Maori is both crass and childish.Grow up!Robin Bell" Robin this is part of the history of our country. I find it fascinating that there may be a history here going back thousands of years. There is nothing childish about wanting to uncover that history. Maybe you should examine your own attitude on this. As I have asked before why do you feel so threatened by the possibility that you have to completely discount it especially as there is no way that you can possibly be 100% certain you are right?

NOT SENSIBLE, CAPTAIN SENSIBLE

Posted on 19-09-2013 13:13 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible accuses people of making excuses for Maori, and being afraid of facts and truth. He thinks Maori privileges are unfair to non-Maori. However he has a warped idea of fairness. He keeps ignoring the fact that the greatest race based privilege is Pakeha control of the Government and the education system. Continually whinging about unfairness to Pakeha and ignoring unfairness to Maori is not sensible at all.

PROBABLY 99.9% CERTAIN

Posted on 19-09-2013 13:36 | By Peter Dey

Graeme points out, quite rightly, that because radiocarbon evidence is scientific research, we cannot be 100% certain it is correct. However, because it ties in with DNA and language evidence, scientists are probably 99.9% confident that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand about 1250 AD. The probability that cave drawings were drawn here by Chinese in 4500 BC is about 0%.

Probably 99% certain

Posted on 19-09-2013 19:45 | By Graeme

Aren't we lucky to have such a knowledgeable contributor to this debate as Peter Dey. 0% chance they are ancient Chinese etching, well that sorts that then. To be fair you should probably get in touch with Professor Tane and let him know that he is 100% wrong and wasting his time. I will leave you now, how can I possibly debate with someone who is so certain. Have a good day.

@ Robin Bell

Posted on 19-09-2013 20:59 | By Captain Sensible

The Govt is elected by the people. It is called democracy. It has nothing to do with race. I can not believe I had to tell you that. I have asked you many times to explain the maori education system in place pre european, as it must have been very good for you to want to go back to it. Enlighten us!

PRE-EUROPEAN MAORI IS IRRELEVANT

Posted on 19-09-2013 21:35 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible, the present education system is unfair to Maori. Government statistics make this absolutely clear. Pre-European Maori education is completely irrelevant to present day unfairness. Captain Sensible seems to be avoiding the issue. He is whinging about Maori privileges being unfair to non-Maori, and avoiding the fact that the education system is unfair to Maori. His idea of fairness is total nonsense.

KEEP ON DEBATING GRAEME

Posted on 19-09-2013 21:58 | By Peter Dey

Graeme, if you want to make the theory credible, that Chinese painted the Opihi cave drawings in 4500BC , then you have to provide evidence of how the Chinese got to New Zealand in 4500 BC, and how they did it without leaving any evidence of settlement behind. You also have to provide evidence to completely disprove the radiocarbon evidence that there was no settlement here before 1250 AD.

Ah! Democracy Cap'n

Posted on 19-09-2013 22:05 | By robin bell

Methinks you mean the rule of the Majority.Egalitarian Deomocracy in the form you want is impossible,because of the threat from people like you.This country was created in biculturism.It is no threat to anyone.The majority rule you crave ruled in N.Z.until the 1970s.The minority (Maori)were cheated out of their language,culture and much of their land,by people like you.We will never return to that.Get used to it!!Robin Bell.

unfair?? How

Posted on 20-09-2013 07:38 | By Captain Sensible

How is it unfair? Plenty of good maori do well. Plenty of non-maori fail. Explain what is in the maori DNA that makes them so special that they and only they, need race based privileges, handouts, racist laws etc. You are just one long excuse.

RAVING ON AGAIN DEY

Posted on 20-09-2013 08:19 | By crazyhorse

Maori have their own education system. If maori choose maori education it starts with Kohanga Reo, then on to full emersion maori schools, full emersion classes in main stream schools, maori boarding schools for girls and boys are available, from there they can go to university on gov't paid grants and can enrol in medicine, law or what ever they like on less marks than non maori. How would you have it Dey, I hope your not saying that the other 85% of non maori students should be taught in maori or the same way, get off your knees Dey look ahead the majority of maori are. some of the courses in university are on the treaty of Waitangi and teach how to get on the gravy train more easily, how much more do you want, don't believe me, check out Canterbury university site, (AMAZING)

THE EDUCATION SYSTEM ACCORDING TO DEY

Posted on 20-09-2013 09:07 | By crazyhorse

Perhaps Mr Dey could tell us all what a perfect education system would be if he had his way, please fill us all in, exactly how you would like it to be, funding, type of curriculum, language, where, when, and by who,lets hear from the man that knows!!!!

La-la land

Posted on 20-09-2013 12:42 | By JERRY CORNELIUS

Again Peter you have verified the discrimination in NZ education, and you have also confirmed its failures I.e. to remedy any Maori educational issues, actually education starts at home pre school. Of course other cultures have had thousands of years head start on Maori and it shows, simple examples are: Maori had not got out of the bone age, not even invented the wheel, wiped out the Moa, large tracks of forest and via these reason were on a path of self destruction, add to that of course that without the Pre-Maori in NZ then the Maori future would have disappeared a long time ago. If Maori were not concerned about per Maori then why is it that Maori are so keen to destroy pre Maori historic sites up to 2500 years old, why is the evidence of these things held secret from the pubic hmmmmm Peter/Robbin?

JERRY, PRE-MAORI EVENTS ARE IRRELEVANT

Posted on 20-09-2013 15:17 | By Peter Dey

JERRY CORNELIUS refers to pre-Maori events, but these are irrelevant to the responsibility of educational professionals right now. They know that the education system discriminates against Maori. They are working hard to improve Maori achievement, and are they making progress. People whingeing about privileges for Maori have a twisted idea of fairness. Claims that Maori are destroying historic sites is unsubstantiated mudslinging.

MAORI CULTURE IS NO THREAT TO CRAZYHORSE

Posted on 20-09-2013 15:28 | By Peter Dey

Crtazyhorse has a lot to say about special treatment for Maori in the education system. Educational professionals are now working hard to make the education system more fair for Maori and are succeeding. Maori schools are part of this and pose no threat to non-Maori at all. Recognition of Maori culture is progress. This is nothing that Crazyhorse is justified in whingeing about.

You certainly are Jerry,

Posted on 20-09-2013 16:15 | By robin bell

In La la land that is.There is no discrimination in N.Z. schools.If Pakeha parents or children wish to be educated in Maori, They can, very few do.In terms of modern,formal education you are correct many Maori are late comers(very late)due to the policies of previous generations of administrators and their draconian policies.Denying Maori an education in their native tongue.Did you suffer from that Jerry,?I doubt it.Many of the problems faced today stem from that.Maori isolation also denied them opportunity to absorb development the way other cultures did.Did your people invent the wheel Jerry?I doubt it.Could the British have built an empire without Chinese gunpowder Jerry? I doubt it.Could they have sailed the seven seas without mathematics from the Arabs Jerry?I doubt it.The rest of your ill informed comment is worthless.You must do better.Robin Bell.

HAVE YOU GOT A COMMUNICATION PROBLEM DEY

Posted on 20-09-2013 17:01 | By crazyhorse

Answer the question Dey, I didn't say anything about maori culture, I said maori have their own education system, if you had your way, what changes would you make, how would our education system look according to PETER DEY, clear enough this time????

WHY IS CRAZYHORSE COMPLAINING

Posted on 21-09-2013 09:35 | By Peter Dey

Most Maori students are in the mainstream education system. Education professionals know that it fails too many Maori students, and they are making special provisions to improve Maori success. The Maori education system produces much better results for Maori, and takes nothing from non-Maori. As long as Maori achievement keeps improving, New Zealand education is heading in the right direction. Why does Crazyhorse complain?

ANSWER THE QUESTION DEY

Posted on 21-09-2013 10:17 | By crazyhorse

Im not complaining about anything, I am trying to point out maori have a complete education system to them selves if they choose to use it, I have been studying this and some of the maori boarding schools are getting real success, these children taken in and looked after in a controlled environment do well, maori have their own system if they choose Dey, I ask again do you want all schools in NZ to be Maori schools, yes or no, why is it so hard to get an answer to this question?

MAINSTREAM SCHOOLS SHOUD BE FAIR TO MAORI

Posted on 21-09-2013 11:55 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, I do not want all schools in New Zealand to be Maori schools. I want Maori schools available for those who want a Maori school. I want mainstream schools to keep improving their programmes so that they are fair to Maori. That is what we are getting closer to now. Does Crazyhorse deny that there is discrimination against Maori students?

Can I answer Crazy?

Posted on 21-09-2013 12:05 | By robin bell

Without realising it you answer your own questions(sort of)Maori Schools can be very successful,that proves the point about targeted education.This benefits all N.Zrs.Not all Maori parents can afford boarding school fees.Nor for that matter can all Pakeha parents.Therefore public schools need to cater to both,and students from other countries.The 1 law 4 all party has clearly stated that they will oppose such policy.Peter Dey is clearly a supporter of continuing the current policy,as am I.As for you not "complaining"Crazy,that has got to be the joke of the century.So far.Robin Bell.(Rubby)

2 AT ONCE, WOW HOW LUCKY AM I?

Posted on 21-09-2013 18:06 | By crazyhorse

Yes Dey, I deny main stream schools discriminate against maori, main stream schools are there for everyone. There is a separate tax payer funded system just for maori, even the boarding schools Rubby goes on about are not private, publicly funded the whole system, even main stream schools have full emersion classes, I have posted orders from the education dep't talking of more maori to be spoken even in the staff room and more say from local maori in the running of local schools, I say again, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT.

degrees in kapahaka

Posted on 21-09-2013 20:40 | By Captain Sensible

In reality maori schools produce unemployable basket weaving haka dancers. No real demand for that in the real world. So although maori kids are getting top marks in flax weaving and kapa haka, they are doomed to fail because they are taking an easy but semi-useless option. Best chances for success and employment is the education system that the other 85% of kiwis use.

CRAZYHORSE, STATISTICS SHOW DISCRIMINATION

Posted on 21-09-2013 22:29 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, education statistics show clearly that Maori students achieve worse than Pakeha students in mainstream schools. The education system is run by mostly Pakeha professionals. If they run a system that favours Pakeha, which they do, that is discrimination against Maori. It is not intentional, and they are working to change it, but denying the fact is simple ignorance.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE IS IGNORANT OF MAORI RESULTS

Posted on 21-09-2013 22:39 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible says that Maori schools produce unemployable basket weavers. This is totally ignorant nonsense. Maori secondary schools qualify about 90% of their students with an NCEA level 2 certificate, that qualifies them for tertiary study in all vocational subjects, including subjects such as business and computing.

WHAT MORE DO I WANT

Posted on 21-09-2013 22:46 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse mentions a number of examples of Maori being given greater respect in schools. This has no negative effect on Pakeha at all. All I want now is for Pakeha to realise that if positive help for Maori does not harm Pakeha, then Pakeha should not be getting worked up over it.

IGNORANCE TO PUT DOWN KAPA HAKA

Posted on 22-09-2013 10:51 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible is disparaging about kappa haka. He needs to think about the fact that Maori culture is one of the unique things about New Zealand. This is worth hundreds of millions of dollars every year to New Zealand. Maori talent in music, sport, art, theatre, and entertainment are an enormous contribution to New Zealand society.

The cap'n of the Lugger

Posted on 22-09-2013 13:40 | By robin bell

cap'n sensibllllle once again shows his ignorance.Dribbling as he does about supposed Maori failure.To be honest I think he suffers from a deep seated "inferiority complex,in order to counter this debilitating condition he resorts to criticism of anything Maori.No doubt it makes him feel good,but he's still a loser.Robin Bell.

griever maori mollycoddled

Posted on 22-09-2013 14:21 | By Captain Sensible

But maori do not need to get the high marks that the other 85% of kiwis must get, to go to university. Too much time wasted feeling good about poking tongues out and speaking a language that over 99% of NZ don't care for. The old chiefs from 1800s had more sense than modern day griever maori for they could see where the future was.

STATISTICKS DON'T SHOW DISCRIMINATION

Posted on 22-09-2013 15:15 | By crazyhorse

Have you ever heard of personal responsibility or the saying you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink, education is the corner stone of any society and I think it should be free to all citizens, but, if you come from homes that have no books and parents who show no interest in home work and such other help you are a child maori or non maori behind the 8 ball big time, what happens at the moment weather maori don't learn, are over weight, smoke, commit crime or are out of work, its never their fault, always the naughty colonist, every ones sick of it Dey, harden up.

EDUCATIONAL PROFESSIONALS ARE RESPONSIBLE

Posted on 22-09-2013 16:36 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse writes a great deal about what contributes to Maori education failure. Educational professionals know all this. They are trying to allow for it. But until Maori students achieve as well as Pakeha students the education system discriminates against Maori. In the meantime Pakeha should stop being obsessed with privileges for Maori, which do not harm Pakeha.

CRAZYHORSE IS CONFUSING RESULTS AND ACTIONS

Posted on 22-09-2013 18:22 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse is confusing the actions of Maori students and professional educators with the result of the education system. It does not matter what is done, if the result of the education system is that Maori students are failed more than Pakeha, then the system discriminates against Maori. The result is what matters, not what is done.

Peter is confusing results with expectations

Posted on 22-09-2013 19:26 | By Plonker

Peter, you focus on the results achieved but you fail to link that up with the most important thing and measure that to results elsewhere in ZN and the world. If you did then you would find that not a single positive comes out of it. Crazyhorse is right all the way, you have not shown one single proven fact that "disproves" anything said from that quarter. No science, no artifacts, no objectively review data, no objectively reviewed and consider conclusions drawn from the same. All we see here is repeat stuff from way back and a complete failure to consider what is known, obvious and sadly very simple ...

MOLLYCODDLE IS NOT ACCURATE

Posted on 22-09-2013 19:51 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible is not accurate with describing Maori students as mollycoddled. Students only get to university if they pass the University Entrance qualification. This is the same for all students, regardless of whether they are Maori or Pakeha. There is no special lower entry level for Maori students.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 22-09-2013 20:39 | By Captain Sensible

So now you admit maori do get race based privileges, but say us non-maori should not worry about it because it does not harm us!!!!! It harms the country. It encourages maori to not take responsibility. It harms me because I am reduced to a second class citizen. It harms me because my tax dollars are stolen and given to racist grievers so I am denied the benefits. Anyway, at least you finally admit race based privileges are rife in NZ. We are making progress!

Crazy is sick of it,

Posted on 22-09-2013 21:14 | By robin bell

and exhorts Peter to "harden up".The day of the hardnosed uncaring whiteman is over Crazy.If you take your head out of that conspiracy bucket for a minute and check out the real world you will see why.Ethnic minorities worldwide are demanding a fair crack of the whip,and getting it.Barrack Obama was reelected against all odds by people sick of injustice.N.Z.is an example to the world of how that compromise can work.You the cap'n and the rest of your short sighted freinds,would reverse this.You have a serious problem with blame,is this paranoia or just an excuse?Get your head out of those stupid books,you won't regret it.Your friend Rubby.Robin Bell.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE IS MISINFORMED

Posted on 22-09-2013 22:40 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible, the cost of any raced based privileges for Maori is insignificant compared to the value of Pakeha privilege in education and politics. The privilege for Pakeha in living in a society where the education and political systems are controlled by Pakeha is enormous.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE IS NOT A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN

Posted on 22-09-2013 22:49 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible has lost the plot again if he thinks that Maori getting something that he does not get makes him a second class citizen. As long as New Zealand is controlled by Pakeha, Captain Sensible will be a first class citizen. Improving things for Maori will never change that.

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE SHOULD PRODUCE EVIDENCE

Posted on 22-09-2013 22:57 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible should produce some evidence of race based privileges and what they cost before he gets more excited. I expect that what he will come up with will be insignificant.

CONFISCATIONS STILL BENEFIT CAPTAIN SENSIBLE

Posted on 22-09-2013 23:17 | By Peter Dey

While Captain Sensible is trying to find some race based privileges that are not insignificant, he can compare with Tauranga confiscated land. The Government confiscated $500 million worth of land in Tauranga, and returned $50 million. Captain Sensible and all other taxpayers, are still sitting on a $450 million asset.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 23-09-2013 07:29 | By Captain Sensible

You really don't know do you? Maori students have a lower entry level standard for University than non-maori. For example, Auckland Med school; non-maori require a bursary mark of 460/500. You can not get in with less. But, maori students require significantly less....a mark in the 300s/500. Don't you think that is racist?

UNCARING WHITE MAN

Posted on 23-09-2013 08:16 | By crazyhorse

That's a bit rough my friend, I want maori to succeed more than anything. The difference between us is I would like to see people take a little responsibility for them selves and I don't believe in what's happening at the moment, that does not make me a red neck!

ENTRY QUOTAS ARE ANTI-RACIST

Posted on 23-09-2013 10:48 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible refers to an entry quota system at Auckland Medical School. Maori students are granted entry with lower marks, but they still have to have a qualification mark. American universities also have similar quota systems. The aim is to increase the number of Maori doctors, so as to reduce the dominance of the medical system by Pakeha doctors. This is fairness not racism.

CRAZYHORSE THE STUDENT IS NOT IN CHARGE

Posted on 23-09-2013 11:00 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse wants Maori to take responsibility for solving their problems. This is like expecting the patient, not the doctor, to solve a medical problem. Education professionals, not Maori students, are in charge of the education system. If Maori students are not achieving it is the job of the education professionals, not the students, to solve the problem.

MOLLYCODDLE IS ACCURATE

Posted on 23-09-2013 11:49 | By YOGI BEAR

Peter is on some other planet or something. Yes peter you are right on the point that you have to pass the exams to get to university, what you have forgotten is the second part ... "except of you are Maori then there is a minimum intake of students irrespective of the marks earned and that even goes as far as pushing out better and higher achieving students of any/other ethnic group. There was a name for that in South Africa a few years ago.

Crazy is

Posted on 23-09-2013 11:52 | By YOGI BEAR

Robin perhaps you would like to explain why you are no longer in the UK? perhaps it has something to do with the getto's in Manchester and elsewhere?

CAPTAIN SENSIBLE SHOULD PRODUCE EVIDENCE

Posted on 23-09-2013 12:03 | By YOGI BEAR

No need Captain, Peter has already agreed that it is happening. Add to that of course that the Human Rights Act does not note an amount where it is "ok" and above that is not, so Peter has now confirmed that Maori are racist, priviledged and pampered at the expense of others and that si the way they like it.

CONFISCATIONS CREATED VALUE $500M

Posted on 23-09-2013 12:06 | By YOGI BEAR

Peter please provide the evidence of that fictious amount PS if it is from the Waitangi Tribunal then is at best would be called "creative". Least we forget that Maori took all of NZ from Moriori and gave none of it back, so lets use that precedent as a basis to rectify the record Peter ok?

lower entry level standard for University

Posted on 23-09-2013 12:08 | By YOGI BEAR

Captn, that is called "dumbing" down the system and is reflected in the overall rankings now of NZ universities, just the same as happened in SA in the last 15-20 years, NZ is on the same path now, where ability/merit is a distant second now.

tAURANGA CONFISCATION VALUE FOR YOGI BEAR

Posted on 23-09-2013 15:29 | By Peter Dey

20,000 hectares of Tauranga Maori land was confiscated. Undeveloped farmland here now sells for about $25,000 per hectare. Multiply these and you get $500 million as the current value of land confiscated from Maori. As well Maori have received no income from that land for over 100 years.

YOGI BEAR IS CONFUSED ON UNIVERSITY ENTRY

Posted on 23-09-2013 15:40 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR says that Auckland University's entry quota system for Maori has caused the drop in their international ranking. American universities also have entry quotas for black students. Also the idea that enrolling a handful of Maori medical students has led to a drop in international ranking is total, not credible, nonsense.

YOGI BEAR

Posted on 23-09-2013 15:45 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR makes comments about privileges for Maori. The fact that he also produces no evidence of these claimed privileges highlights the fact that anti-privileges protesters base their protest on emotion not fact.

Here is a winner for you Peter

Posted on 23-09-2013 17:39 | By YOGI BEAR

OECD assessment results ... NZers work 15% more hours than average, paid 15% less and 15% less productive, this is the effect of "dumbing" down the education system and will worsen with time with increased influence from the non productive segment of the NZ economy. Peter can you tell me if it is a coincidence that part Maori are 15% of the NZ population? Is there a link here that should be looked into?

What are all you on about?

Posted on 23-09-2013 20:46 | By Roadkill

Government policy is to provide numerous assistance to Maori to 'help' educate and so on, the sad part about it all is that officials think that money and more officials will make the lot of Maori better but sadly that is not how it works at all, the lessons start at home at an early stage in life and the basis and pattern is well entrenched before school is even close to starting. That is the part that is missing here.

ANOTHER YOGI BEAR FANTASY

Posted on 23-09-2013 21:42 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR asks whether the fact that Maori make up 15% of the population has anything to do with the fact that New Zealanders are 15% less productive than the OECD average. When New Zealanders previously had productivity the same as the OECD average, Maori were 15% of the population. So the change has nothing to do with Maori.

TURKEY SHOOT HAS NO SOLUTION

Posted on 23-09-2013 21:53 | By Peter Dey

TURKEY SHOOT points out that the home has a major influence on educational success. Education professionals know this, but knowing it does not produce a practical solution to the problem. Until Maori education failure is solved, people should stop talking about Maori privileges and ignoring the failure of the Education system to prevent discrimination against Maori.

Turkey shoot is correct

Posted on 23-09-2013 22:04 | By robin bell

but the best way to remedy the problem is to raise the education levels of those who repeat the behaviour.Eventually the success rate increases.Its happening now.The 1law4all party want to reverse it,and return to the way that produced the problem in the first place.Robin Bell.

DEY THE PATIENT IS NOT IN CHARGE.

Posted on 23-09-2013 22:38 | By crazyhorse

you use the analogy between doctors and teachers, your right, but if the patient won't stop smoking, lose weight, or take the medicine the doctor gives them, how is it then the doctors or in this case teachers fault, there has to be some personnel responsibility weather you like it or not, your saying that if a teacher asks a student to do certain work to learn and if said student can't be bothered its the teachers fault, that's bloody ridiculous!!!

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 24-09-2013 07:19 | By Captain Sensible

Peter, you recently admitted maori got race based privileges with the add on that we should not mind because it does not hurt us (!!!). Now you are saying these privileges do not exist and want evidence!!!! Stop playing silly games. You admitted it in your post 21-09-2013 22:46.

STILL NO EVIDENCE CAPTAIN SENSIBLE

Posted on 24-09-2013 11:24 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible needs to produce his evidence of privileges for Maori if there are any, and if the cost is significant. At present Captain Sensible is trying to play with words and is avoiding the fact that so far he has produced no evidence.

A bit baffled

Posted on 24-09-2013 11:53 | By bresim

I've read all the comments on here and have not seen any evidence that maori are discriminated against in education,as per Peter Deys arguement. He also says it doesn't hurt non-maori if maori get benefits. But it does, even if it's just financial, it must come from somewhere. Also, I have been put off training to be a nurse as the amount of maori immersion is unbelieveable, having to stay on a marae at least once a term. I don't see any point in this. Peter and Robin also can't seem to find an answer as to why overseas maori,seem to do so much better than here.

DO MAORI STUDENTS DO BETTER IN AUSTRALIA

Posted on 24-09-2013 12:15 | By Peter Dey

Bresim assumes that Maori students do better in Australia without any evidence. This claim is made as a criticism of Maori students in New Zealand. It is blaming the students for failure, and not the education professionals running the education system. Nobody has produced education statistics for Maori in Australia.

grow up Peter

Posted on 24-09-2013 12:22 | By Captain Sensible

Peter, you admitted maori got racist privilege. I have even referenced your post where you admitted it. Do you seriously think denial, denial, denial will wash anymore? You are getting childish asking us to repeat evidence and then claiming there is none. Please grow up.

Bresim,

Posted on 24-09-2013 12:47 | By robin bell

You won,t find very much "evidence"of anything reading these comments.N.Z.is an unusual nation,founded in biculturism.Maori have lived,dominated in every sense of the word by Pakeha for generations.Maori are tax payers too.They have a human right to be treated in a culturally sensitive way,not all require it but those who do need it.I find it sad that you cannot find it within,to compromise your obvious prejudice.I sincerely hope you don't limit your life experience to just that of your own race.It is so negative for a thousand reasons.Look around you will see Maori achieving both in N.Z. and Australia.All due to the new approach.Robin Bell.

PAKEHA EASILY LACK EMPATHY WITH MAORI

Posted on 24-09-2013 12:50 | By Peter Dey

Bresim is critical of Maori immersion in nursing training. However, Pakeha can easily not realise, that although they believe that they treat everybody the same, in fact they empathise worse with Maori than with Pakeha. Many Pakeha teachers and health workers have more to learn about empathy with Maori, which affects the outcome for patients and students.

maori-only privileges

Posted on 24-09-2013 13:35 | By Captain Sensible

Schools, Education scholarships, Housing projects, Health prioritisation and initiatives, Welfare (whanau ora), Prisoner programmes, positions on government agencies, Consultation rights under the RMA, Parks, rivers, lakes, coastline. Maori authority tax rates, Maori authority tax-free status, unelected seats on local councils, Local government statutory boards, Seats in parliament, Sports teams, Maori electoral roll, Agribusiness Awards, Maori TV Channels, Music Awards. ("Let the Truth be known" by Hilda Philips she found there were about 269 Acts giving Maori preference over non-Maori). Sole Rights to Greenstone in the South Island, Sole Rights to whale watching and beached whales.

Deliberately Obtuse,

Posted on 24-09-2013 14:21 | By robin bell

C'mon Crazy!! No one is blaming the teachers.Personal responsibility comes from implementing the total package.Proper parenting produces proper students(generally)Education comes next.It's a process that many Maori were denied for all sorts of socio-economic reasons.No one is to blame its history.Of course we could do it your way,remove targeted funding,ignore the problem and build more jails.Thats easy,you can lie in bed at night,blaming Maori,Pacific Islanders and failed Pakeha as you do now.(Rubby)

Need to look back

Posted on 24-09-2013 15:41 | By Anbob

Like Bresim, I too have read all the comments.Peter and Robyn you should really look back at your comments on the matter, they are inconsistent and show you both in a very poor light. Dare I say it, almost racist! Need to move forward, not look backwards.

MISLEADING MAORI-ONLY PRIVILEGES

Posted on 24-09-2013 15:52 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible is misleading when he describes spending for Maori as Maori-only privileges when it is just Maori getting their fair share of general spending, non-Government spending, spending to prevent injustice, and property inherited through the Treaty of Waitangi. Schools, sports teams, RMA consultation, and rights for greenstone are examples. Captain Sensible, give us some genuine figures for costly Maori-only spending.

MAORI AUTHORITY TAX RATES

Posted on 24-09-2013 16:24 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible is misleading to describe Maori Authority tax rates as a Maori-only privilege. Check with the IRD and you find that Maori Authorities pass on their earnings to beneficiaries. The IRD taxes Maori Authorities at 17.5% because that is the tax rate of 90% of their beneficiaries. Marae have tax free status because they meet the Charities Commission conditions, like churches.

WHAT INCONSISTENT COMMENTS

Posted on 24-09-2013 16:32 | By Peter Dey

Anbob should produce what he thinks are inconsistent comments. It is more likely that he has not understood what has been written.

PARKS, RIVERS, LAKES, COASTLINE

Posted on 24-09-2013 16:40 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible lists parks, rivers, lakes, and coastline as Maori-only privileges. The present National Government believes in the right to own property. Any parks, rivers, lakes, and coastline that Maori own, they do so because of an inherited property right from the Treaty of Waitangi. Pakeha have no valid reason to object to this.

Anbob,

Posted on 24-09-2013 17:25 | By robin bell

is confused.Peter and I are the ones looking forward.If you reread my comments,please point out my inconsistancy.How can you say we are the ones looking backward?We defend the status quo and wish to retain it.Our opposition wish to scrap or reverse it.If we are "almost"racist then surely you would agree,we are in good company.Fact is we're not.Reverse=Turn back.Robin Bell.

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 24-09-2013 17:38 | By Captain Sensible

Now Peter Dey changes tack after being caught out and says maori privilege ( which he has admitted to) is actually maori getting their share of tax dollars. This is a childish explanation because unless he can tell us where the other races in NZ get their share...the Chinese, the Indians, the Scots, the Dutch, the Sth African...etc, then it is indeed race based privilege denied to all other races in NZ. You are losing credibility fast with every childish contradicting post.

Looking forward

Posted on 24-09-2013 19:49 | By Captain Sensible

Yes, Robin and Peter are looking forward....to a lifetime of maori privileges and handouts while the rest of NZ becomes second class citizens.

The cap'n is getting rediculous

Posted on 24-09-2013 20:17 | By robin bell

If Whanau Ora is Maori only,perhaps the floundering cap'n could explain how they are my health providers? Come on cap'n explain to the world how informed you are.Peter has taken care of the rest.You put'em up we'll knock 'em down.Robin Bell.

QUITE RIGHT CAP'N

Posted on 25-09-2013 08:05 | By crazyhorse

Up until recently whanau ora was maori only, it is now open to non maori, Rubby said he has always used them as his health provider, so what, anyone who saids their maori can get these benefits, how brown are you really Rubby???

@ Peter Dey

Posted on 25-09-2013 08:31 | By Captain Sensible

Peter Dey has admitted maori get race based (ie racist) privileges. FACT. See your post 21-09-2013 22:46.

Your playing with words Crazy,

Posted on 25-09-2013 10:36 | By robin bell

Tell us what you mean by 'recently'where I said 'always'when I've ever claimed to be Maori.You can't!reason being you've got your head stuck hard and fast in that conspiracy bucket.Like your mate the cap'n you think your double clever quoting out of context.It doesnt work Crazy,Unless of course your preaching to the converted.Good luck with that.Rubby the pom.

MAORI AUTHORITY TAX RATES

Posted on 25-09-2013 11:03 | By YOGI BEAR

Excellent Peter, you have confirmed the tax subsidies here. To recap then... Maori pay less tax and get more from taxpayers, sounds like a "win-win" situation to me.

When the cap'n

Posted on 25-09-2013 12:00 | By robin bell

gets stuck in the bog,Crazy hops in too.How in gods name can the cap'n extract'privelige' from Peters comment on 21-9-13 22;46..He talks of 'respect'for Maori,with no negative effect on Pakeha.Thats it,nothing more.If your not very careful cap'you'll be walking the 'plank'god knows your as thick as one.Robin Bell.

Ieuan

Posted on 25-09-2013 12:20 | By Ieuan

The debate goes on and on ad nauseum. There is no partnership because the treaty ceded the sovereignty of NZ to Queen Victoria. Maori are not really a separate race as most have way more European blood than Maori blood. Look at ghastly activist Margaret Mutu who is at least 75% European given that her mother is Scottish and her father part-Maori Yet she tries to call the rest of us "guests in her country!" Ditto Ken Mair! As the Captain notes there are 269 special privileges for Maori and still counting - I note TV and radio stations, sports teams, music awards, no payment of rates on Maori land, scholarships to schools, universities, nursing etc. all a step too far to a group of people who are mostly of European stock. The treaty gave no special rights to Maori, they do not own NZ. We all do!

COMPENSATION NOT PRIVILEGES, CAPTAIN SENSIBLE

Posted on 25-09-2013 16:10 | By Peter Dey

Captain Sensible is being misleading in his use of the words race-based privileges. A privilege is usually a benefit that places somebody in a superior position. We do not refer to insurance or ACC payouts as privileges. The term, race-based privileges, is a deliberately misleading use of the word privileges. Measures to compensate for disadvantage are compensation not privileges.