Three foes of Tauranga City Council's hot pools redevelopment turned the public forum at the council's projects and monitoring committee meeting into a concerted attack on the council's handling of the pools expansion project.
Mount Hot Pools.
The council controlled organisation, hot pools operator Tauranga City Aquatics Ltd, also received mention.
Accountant Ian Stevenson, lawyer Rob Paterson and Mount Protection Society spokesman Fred Greenville took turns to attack the council over its hot pools decision making, and TCAL over the figures it presented in support of its case for the $7.5 million or $10.5 million project.
Ian and Rob led with the finances and Fred followed up by slamming the underlying premise for the project.
TCAL made a $4.222 million loss for the last financial year, says Ian.
He criticised the audit methodology saying a sample audit of Greerton Pools was inadequate.
He asked why there are no water rates or rates paid by TCAL, a commercial entity.
He also raised the point council staff are offered $249 memberships in the pools' gymnasia with pool use thrown in for free.
Ian is a gymnasium owner and previously criticised the council's subsidising his competitors.
It sparked a council report and when asked why he didn't appear at the submissions hearing on the issue, he says he wasn't informed of it.
He says TCAL's claims about the hot pools finance don't tally.
A statement the hot pools will lose $160,000 a month while closed for repairs means the pools' 10,000-15,000 customers a month are paying about $13 each.
It also means 26 people an hour for 16 hours a day over seven days must be using the hot pools.
A more realistic amount of $5 a head means there must be 32,000 people a month or 67 an hour using the Mount Hot Pools.
In five years not one cruise ship passenger has ever asked for a massage at the hot pools, says Ian. The cruise ships' own spas will be superior.
He says the council is failing in its governance allowing TCAL to go ahead with no business plan, issuing contracts without a consent, and by beginning on-site preparation by removing the camp office.
To meet the interest payments of $10 million at 7.5 per cent will be 144 massages a day, says Ian.
Rob Paterson says the private spa pools were upgraded in 2010 and as a regular hot pools user when they were open he has seen little use there.
The lost income from the 23 harbourside camp sites is likely to be more than the income from the hot pools, says Rob.
Iwi opposition to a proposed compass at the top of the Mount is ‘quite precious' when set beside the impact of the proposed wellness centre, says Rob.
Fred says informal surveys of cruise ship passengers show no interest in getting a massage at the Mount, refuting TCAL's claims the cruise ships are going to provide the massage and wellness centre customers.
The Polynesian Spa in Rotorua, with which the expanded hot pools project has been compared by TCAL, is on the tourist bus route.
There are 10 bus parks at the Polynesian Pools and 200 car parks and Fred says tourists there have a swim not a massage, and leave just over an hour later.
He says there is no room at the Mount for that bus parking or even the car parking and it will put out-of-business 12 ratepayer owned wellness centres between Adams Ave and Bayfair, as well as seriously impacting on the cafes and restaurant near Marine Parade.
Following these protests at the public forum, councillors suggested having a meeting with Ian Stevenson to go over some of his figures.
52 comments
Great News
Posted on 25-07-2011 17:27 | By tabatha
I just hope our elected Councillors listen to these three sensible gentlemen. The chaos that an extended pool operation will bring to the foot of the Mount is beyond comprehension. I also wonder if the hidden agenda by TCAL is to say if they win we need more parking space and try to do away with the camping ground altogether. Heaven forbid this. It is time all the dirty and clean laundry was aired sorted and put away for once and for all. Perhaps some people may need to fall on their sword and admit the pen is mighty than the sword. Councillors think carefully.
TODAYS PRESENTATION
Posted on 25-07-2011 18:28 | By Ian Stevenson
TAURANGA CITY COUNCIL Projects & Monitoring Committee 25/7/2011 @ 1.00pm - TCC meeting - public forum. Thank you for the opportunity to address the Committee. TCAL financial position I would like to make some pertinent points about the last annual report of TCAL. Grants total $4.867 m Other revenue is $926,000 Percentage earned is 15.98% Loss for the year as reported is $4.222 m This level of reported external revenue to loss is at or below that indicated nationally. Methodology report In the agenda for the Strategy & Policy Committee dated 15-Jun-2011 there was a letter included dated 15-Mar-2011, it was from Epsilon and Assoc Ltd where it was stated that: 'The sample testing focused on the Greerton health Club. It was confirmed that a consistent methodology was applied to all commercial activities undertaken by TCAL” Obvious questions arise like: - 1 To look at Greerton being one of the smaller outposts of TCAL @ 19% of the overall activity and determine that the whole operation is right is erroneous. 2 Only a small sample of data was used to come to this conclusion, and all was done within the BOPLASS existing audit fee of only $8,350 (2010). 3 Unless someone makes sure and confirms that all the costs are actually in TCAL in the first place then what is the point of reviewing it? 4 What actually is the methodology other than make it up as you go? Perhaps the idea is to split the costs equally between the five pool facilities? 5 Other than the TECT loan of $4m due today for repayment (25/7/2011) where is all of the rest of the debt and interest costs recorded. 6 As TCAL operates a 'commercial” activity how come there are no rates or water rates paid, if it is a commercial activity then it fails to meet the purpose written Baypark rates remission policy of Council. 7 You can only review the methodology by firstly getting all the costs in TCAL, then allocate then by location and activity. 8 In failing to address these issues TCAL are clearly prevaricating. TCAL is still offering deals like $30 for 30 days TCC staff get a $249 annual memberships at TCAL for the gym activities The pool activities are 'thrown in” for free on a gym membership I have requested clarification of a number of aspects of TCAL's financials, the more ask even by official information request the larger the bill gets. I asked: - 'Please provide sufficient information to establish and confirm that TCAL is complying with the Aquatics Policy as to 'non aquatic” activities ?” The cost estimate was provided of $3,200 + GST. I note that this information should be on file as otherwise what is the point of having a policy if no one ever bothers to look to see if it is being complied with? If it was being complied with then why does it cost $3,200 + GST to provide a copy and details? Truth is that the information request response can only be viewed as obstructive and that the position taken only reinforces the idea that there is a lot to hide. Mount Hot Pools The TCAL CEO has been quoted as saying that: - 10,000 to 15,000 customers a month go to the Mt Hot Pools While shut the Hot Pools will lose $160,000 a month But that number means about $13/head entry fees on average is paid It also means 26 people an hour for sixteen hours, 7 days a week, are entering the Hot Pools? Rubbish! If a realistic per head amount was applied here of say $5/head means 32,000 a month or 67/hour. The figures just do not tally here! The only purpose here is to seek to left side the public at all levels. In the end all of this merely falls at the ratepayers feet as debt, interest and more rates. The repairs currently in progress were stated as being 'paid from depreciation account so will not cost TCC ratepayers?” Well I don't care what you call it the contractor is going to want money, and whatever label you create that one way or another the money comes from ratepayers and most likely rates. Wellness redevelopment - MOUNT HOT POOLS The following information may assist Council with regard to the most likely outcome of this ill-conceived project. • In five years not one Cruise ship passenger has received a massage at the Hot Pools according to one full timer working there. • The Day Spa facilities on the ships are and will always be superior to the land based options. • Pick one of these options … have a massage or go to Rotorua / the beach / shopping ? • A independent survey carried out on disembarking passengers was 0% wanted a massage while in Tauranga / Mount Maunganui. It is a shocking state of affairs that: - 1 No proper business plan has been tabled with TCC by TCAL even after requested, why have Council approved money for this project when no one has a plan, or costing or a clue how it is going to happen, it will be no better than the leaky pools. 2 Councillors are meant to have the roll of 'Governance” yet the CCO's involved appear to be free-wheeling e.g. no business plan, issue contracts with -out a building consent, started the preparation onsite with moving the camp office and demolition of the existing office and so on. 3 Reports of the final cost of redevelopment vary between $7.5m and $10.5m for the redevelopment do any of you actually know? Have any of you asked? That is actually part of 'Governance” and of course 'Proven Leadership”. 4 Have Councillors figured out yet how many massages it will require annually to pay the interest only on the debt? $10m at 7.5% = $750,000 p.a., that is 12,500 massages p.a. or 35 per day, one hour sessions for 365 days of the year. 5 Currently TCAL gets 28% of the gross taking from the current massage staff, the payments made are slow and inaccurate on a regular basis. 6 Taking the current contract arrangements into account, that means 114 hourly sessions a day to yield $750,000 for TCAL to meet interest on debt. 7 TCAL still have wages to pay and other costs. Perhaps 200 to 300+ one hour massages a day are needed to cover all the additional operating costs every day of the year. This is simply not going to happen. 8 Where is everyone going to park? with these projected (?) hundreds of people arriving daily and most likely will have to be 24/7 how do they get there on the congested roads and where could they all park especially in the Xmas/ New Year holiday period? TCC business plans and projections All of this leads to some basic and obvious observations that can be made. A. Route K - traffic estimates were grossly overstated by a factor of five and of course as a result the debt is mounting up annually and there is no way out of it now for TCC ratepayers but to be saddled with debt unless NZTA bail us out. B. The Mayor stated that Baypark would not cost ratepayers any money, well you only have to look at the results since the purchase in 2007 and the losses are mounting annually. C. When you look at Baywave's business plan as submitted to TECT the budget shows a profit at Baywave from a couple of years ago, but the actual financial results do not show that at all. The chances of that happening are clearly shown by what happened to Leisure Co Tauranga Ltd (in Liq) and the trail of debts left behind. Add to that the level of overheads at TCAL especially for example the CEO salary of $170,000 p.a. how can anyone possibly make a profit there. The only difference now is that TCC keeps throwing money at it to keep it afloat. D. So when you are considering your procurement policy focus on the administration of it as that along with the City Partners scheme leave gaps where the money flows outward. Councillor Bill Faulkner has in the past stated that anything TCC does costs more than when anyone else does it. The obvious conclusion here is that 'The less that TCC does the better”. E. The current classic project in progress now is the Southern Pipeline the Mayor stated in the Weekend Sun a few months back that the cost is $108m however documents approved here in this Chamber state $166m, then there is in all probability at least that again for Chapel St and Te Munga upgrades when the pipes get there. Add a bit of inflation and there is probably not a lot of change out of $500m in debt for ratepayers. The sad part about the Southern Pipeline is that the technology on the project is 20 years out of date and none of it is necessary.
Com'n Councillors
Posted on 25-07-2011 18:53 | By STRAITAS
Wats with these Councillors they backing the wrong horse in this race they got their BLINKERS tightly shut. Go Ian go give them the rite s---.(stuf)
TCAL LOOKED LIKE BOO-ZOOES!
Posted on 25-07-2011 19:16 | By Crash test dummies
The saying "I am having an out of money experience!" ...
greasing the monkeys
Posted on 25-07-2011 19:35 | By claypole
because $249 bargin price for full membership, can they be available to all? Could the clear as mud CEO please explain why, as a business venture and with membership numbers dwindling, management still have jobs when ideas like this float around!
clearly something is quite wrong at TCC
Posted on 25-07-2011 20:21 | By steve_of_greerton
And good on those who are standing up to it. The hotpools scenario is quite shocking and as an analogue to the southern pipeline it starts to form quite a disconcerting picture, not of outright incompetence but something damn near close to it. I was using the baywave pool facilities at Bayfair earlier in the year and was chatting with a couple of English immigrants who remarked how quaint the facility was and asked me when the TCC was replacing it as it looked very old. You should have seen their faces when I told them how old it was...just 3 years! Imagine if they'd visited that joke of a pool at otumotei?! The infrastructure decisions that TCC is making appear to be very poor and must be evaluated at a deeper level that currently takes place, the big spends are delivering very low quality outcomes with very little transparency along the way. Sharpen up TCC!
First step
Posted on 25-07-2011 21:21 | By The author of this comment has been removed.
Good on you Ian.Maybe this is the first step into a thorough investigation of the operations of council and in particular its outside of council organisations.We need to check out the likes of Priority One,Smart Growth,Tourism Bay of Plenty,Art Gallery,Creative Tauranga,Mainsreet organisations and every other council owned or controlled group.They all seem to employ redundent coucil workers or their friends and have no idea on how business works.If you need support let us know through this publication.
The Council should step down
Posted on 25-07-2011 21:22 | By Openknee8ted
The tail has been wagging the dog for far too long. Time for a new dog.
Time
Posted on 25-07-2011 22:38 | By Capt_Kaveman
to turn it all bk to grass for more campers, shame really as a Mountie i never wanted those filthy hands of TGA anywhere near the MT i would love the Mt and Tga to be re split
SHOCKING FINANCIALMESS
Posted on 26-07-2011 08:16 | By Hebegeebies
After reading this report and Ian Stevenson's presentation at yesterdays Council proceedings I am absolutely gobsmacked with this fiasco.God only knows how many people in TCC and TCAL are involved with or employed on Tauranga Aquatics work it must be a couple of hundred and the annual wage bill is rumoured to have ballooned out to $4million.All this and Mount Hotpools the jewel in the Crown is closed indefinitely Memorial Park opens only in Summer and Otumoetai is in a state of shocking disrepair.Currently only Greerton and Baywave pools are up and running.Those in TCC and TCAL responsible for this debacle must resign now and the whole Tauranga Aquatics Policy overhauled.To these people Reality is only an illusion.
THE THREE MUSCATEERS
Posted on 26-07-2011 09:49 | By YOGI
All a shambles, financial mees happening must have been really embarrassing to TCC to here the truth for a change.
CEO of TCAL gets 170k?
Posted on 26-07-2011 09:53 | By wreck1080
Jeez, I'll reckon you'll find plenty of competent people willing to do this job for 100k.
FROM AUCKLAND WITH LOVE ...
Posted on 26-07-2011 09:58 | By Crash test dummies
Why would I travel to the Mount in the holidays, won't make any difference to me if the hot pool was there or not as we actually go for the beach, atmosphere and friends, god knows why you want a massage palaur as well? That will never work. Better idea to make money is while you have the pools empty is fill them in put up a monument sign as an historic place and charge all to look at it, then only need one staff member from 9-3 work days. Actually you could hire out the concrete pad as a Heli Pad? Maybe a skyhawk would fit in there?
HIJACKED?
Posted on 26-07-2011 10:04 | By Fun in the Sun
How was this "public forum at the council's projects and monitoring committee meeting" hijacked? The hot pools development looks like a project? despite smelling like something else. This is/was a public monitoring meeting? Or have I got this wrong was this meant to be another part of the propaganda campaign dressed up as public participation?-Citizens Monitoring Council-
More about the ship passenger survey please?
Posted on 26-07-2011 12:17 | By Inconvenient Truth
Could we have some details on the survey of cruise ship passengers? What was the actual question? How many passengers surveyed? Their ages and nationality? Was it independent or conducted by those with vested interests? Anyway, regardless of the survey the hot pools proposals are looking pretty well over. A simple solution would be to add up the cost of all the council pools (a swim is a swim whether you live in Arataki, Greerton, Otumoetai or the Mount). Divide the cost by the average number of people using the pools per year. Make that the entry fee.
Challenge to Fred, Rob and Mount Protection
Posted on 26-07-2011 12:27 | By Inconvenient Truth
When you've got rid of this hot pools proposal, which I agree is over the top, will you move on to protecting the Mount in other much needed ways. I'm thinking of all those horrible over the top houses that take up more than 80% of the section with the house itself and concrete yards and driveways. Awful. Only the rich can afford them anyway. Just as bad as the glass towers in my opinion and just as bad as some fancy pools.
Dogs and Tails
Posted on 26-07-2011 12:29 | By festino lente
The real shakers and movers at TCAL are not the CEO, and not the managers. The organisations puppet masters are the board members Mike King and Warren Banks. TCAL is all about creating a blue print for the mgmt of pools and leisure facilities that will enable expansion of their operations through other areas of NZ.
Inconvenient truth doesn't like rich people
Posted on 26-07-2011 14:00 | By wreck1080
"Inconvenient truth" sounds very bitter about the success of 'wealthy people'.Perhaps they could have bought their own full section on the beachfront had they tried harder at school/university/work. Regarding the hot pools redevelopment -- I'm for it if the business case holds up and the tendering processes are completely transparent. But, if they cannot even put up a little compass on the mount then there is no hope for the hot pools redevelopment. Unfortunately for some, it is no longer 1850 at the mount.
Nothing is what it seems.
Posted on 26-07-2011 14:32 | By Hebegeebies
Festino lente > Yes heard that whisper too.King's company not TCAL is apparently trying to line up the management of all major NZ city Community swimming pools.Looks like MOUNT HOTPOOLS might be getting used as a guinea pig at TCC Ratepayers cost to help with this goal.What else do you know ?
VER DER BEEK
Posted on 26-07-2011 16:00 | By YOGI
It was becasue the truth snuck in and that just was not acceptable!
YEAH MATE
Posted on 26-07-2011 19:45 | By CRUMPY
Good one mate, I reckon if I could get that lot in Council down to ma billabong I could giv'em a good dunkin in the trough to wak'em up a bit. Sadly there will not be much water but just a bit a green stuff that the Crocs will not swim in anymore.
@ FESTINO LENTIL
Posted on 26-07-2011 23:04 | By ANNA KISSED
TCAL won't benefit one little bit from all of this, Mike King, his Australian Consulting company however will do so by having created a "BEACH-HEAD" in NZ at what is without doubt the weakest point of entry, Tauranga! I can assure you that there will be no silver linings here for Tauranga ratepayers on this one anytime EVER! We ratepayers will get the bills, the debt and the interest. By the time the wiffle-wofflers realise that they have been done over the consultants will have invaded the rest of the lands whereby the projects will be multiplied on an exponential basis on many a unsuspecting series of victums.
The Truth Is Out
Posted on 27-07-2011 10:19 | By Jitter
Wow ! If TCC and TCAL with all this information in front of them from these three guys, have not now got the message, plus all the comments above backing the "Three Musketeers" up, then they never will. There has obviously been a major cover up here by TCC and TCAL. I agree fully with "Justification's" comments that all the other useless non productive leech like TCC or ratepayer money supported quasi council organisations need to be fully investigated also and closed down if not performingo. Why would you pay the TCAL CEO $170,000 ? A small quasi council organisation not performing and losing money hand over fist like the rest of TCC businesses. Great presentation guys keep up the good work.
Thank you
Posted on 27-07-2011 10:24 | By SpeakUp
Ian Stevenson, Rob Paterson and Fred Greenville, Thank you for your work and effort. -Citizens Monitoring Council-
FANTASTIC SUPPORT HERE
Posted on 27-07-2011 11:51 | By Ian Stevenson
The comments here are great and appreciated, the effort required to prepare and attend such a meeting is very time consuming, especially when the information necessary is hard to come by and when information is requested Council every hurdle possible is created to obstruct what should be an open, transparent and accountable process for the spending of ratepayers funds.
COMMENTS APPRECIATED
Posted on 27-07-2011 12:13 | By Ian Stevenson
It takes a lot of work to prepare and present at these meetings. Especially when you add to that the generally obstructive manner used by Council when a request to obtain information (or Official Information requests) on a timely basis on projects such as the Mount Hot Pools is concerned. Often by the time information gets out of "confidential" and available that damage is already done and ratepayers are saddled with debt and losses that are more often than not in the millions (e.g. Baypark, Rout K etc). It is clear that Council lacks and savvy when it comes to commercial activities, business plans and budgeting and it is most certainly reflected in the results achieved to date.
here we go again
Posted on 27-07-2011 18:03 | By Glen Clova
Lets give the Mount to the Rotorua Maori and then you will see how to make money.Revolving restaurant at the top of the mount Gondola up to it Luge to the bottom into hot pools.They will be developed one day when the present anti Tga brigade have gone.Their will be no unity till the old guard are gone they have a huge chip on their shoulders due to the amalgamation of the 2 boroughs which was a Government order nothing to do with Tauranga,so till that day anything that happens at the TCC will be rubbished by a small minority of the population on both side of the bridge.All the projects done by the Council have been done for the good of the community and the long term.
@ KIRRIE
Posted on 27-07-2011 20:22 | By Vomit
I agree with teh part about the Mount and Rotorua Moari, a "little bit more progressive" and can do stuff there for sure. However the references to the minority are a bit silly as they seem to actually got it sussed, you sadly on the track.
@ JITTER
Posted on 27-07-2011 21:24 | By CRUMPY
You would have thought that but after what is about $4m spent already on consultants they still seem hell bent on ploughing head long into this "BLACK HOLE" for ratepayers hard earn $$$. The cover up here is as "THICK" as it gets with all the Crones-ettes all being dragged in to help.
Good so far...
Posted on 28-07-2011 13:49 | By PeteDashwood
It ISN'T a "hijack" if people speak out at a public meeting. "Well done!" to the people who did. The best outcomes in my opinion would be: [1. No redevelopment or expansion of the hot pools. Perhaps a review in a few years if the current financial situation improves and we can afford to do something that is acceptable to all interested parties. 2. Complete transparency by TCAL in the disposition of funds for the future. (Public tender with independent audit for all major expenditure) A change of attitude to recognise that accountability is not an onerous imposition, it is a necessary part of the job and should be embraced willingly.] It has to be clear that back room deals behind closed doors will not be accepted, that you don't fight by all means possible to get your own way when there are serious objections to what you are proposing, you do not misuse the power you have been given to simply build a bigger empire, and you don't go on holiday in the middle of a crisis. I don't believe for one moment that these things will be achieved by the current "management" (I use quotes here because there has been very little evidence of even the vestigial grasp of any true management ability, and calling these people "managers" is an affront to real managers everywhere), but you never know... perhaps some lessons might have been learned and things will change. For all our sakes, I hope so.
QUESTIONS PUT WHAT ARE THE ANSWERS
Posted on 28-07-2011 16:34 | By ROB PATERSON
Along with the forum presentation made on Monday here is the set of 20 questions I provided to all TCC Councillors for their consideration. MOUNT HOT POOLS REDEVELOPMENT QUESTIONS The following are some questions (by no means exhaustive) in my opinion that Councillors need to ask: - 1. Are there any other successful NZ Hotpool / wellness centre / café complexes of the size of the projected Mount Hot Pools without sufficient parking? 2. What independent; expert market research has been conducted? 3. What experience, success, expertise lies within the TCAL Board on the management of a Hot Pools massage and wellness centre facility of this size? 4. Is the cost of losing 24 camp sites included in business case? Plus payment of compensation for losing income to camp operators which is a factor. 5. Is any of the decision maker's money at risk? i.e., are they personally investing in this venture? If they were, would the mindset be any different? 6. Have private developers been invited to comment on the business case? 7. Have independent experts (if any) that have been involved in putting together the business case; been given an opportunity to comment on the business case as presented to Council? Do TCAL have a business case? 8. Have the regular Mount Hot Pool users been properly consulted? 9. Has the financial and patronage business case detail been published? 10. Has a Private Public Partnership been explored? 11. If more people go to the Mount Hot Pools, how will that affect Baywave, etc? 12. What allowances have been built into the business case for a possible continued economic downturn over say the next 5 years? 13. Effect on roading and traffic; especially as people will be parking on the street, if that ever becomes possible, which is doubtful. 14. Existence of and success of park and ride services to similar facilities in NZ? 15. What percentage of Hamner Springs custom (1/2 million people plus use these Thermal Pools annually) is from tourist buses; what allowance has been made in the business case for the fact that tourist buses don't come through Tauranga? 16. What happens if TCAL business case is wrong and the Hot Pools make a loss and how will TCAL cover the short fall? 17. Has the negative effect of a café in the Hot Pools, on the other cafes in the area been included in the business case? 18. Have cruise ship patrons been surveyed to ascertain the likelihood of them using the Hot Pools and Wellness Centre in their very brief stopovers? 19. What amount of money has been spent on developing the proposals and is this included in the business case? An estimated $2 million plus to date, looks to have been spent on consultancy and investigations. In addition staff time, both TCC and TCAL and escalating costs of Appeal. 20. Has any consideration for Tauranga's warm; dry climate (vs. Hamner Springs and Rotorua) been built into the business case? On the environmental front, we all know it is not the same footprint as it is at present but much larger while an outstanding natural feature Mauao is being eroded, the greenness is being lost, it has ecological sensitivity and the ground level view of the Mount will be lost from that part of Adams Avenue, adjoining the Pools. This summary of environmental issues is by no means exhaustive. The Mount is an outstanding natural landscape.
HJACK HEAT UP
Posted on 29-07-2011 14:05 | By Secret Squirrel
Surely all of this information has been looked at properly ages ago and only progressed based on it being a proper and justified decision, but with all this going on that clearly none of that has been looked at as yet. Shocker I reckon.
BLOW TOUCH LIGHTS UP
Posted on 29-07-2011 16:22 | By MASSA KISSED
Great to see this happen it is SOOOOO overdue that this kind of thing gets aired in public for us all to hear and see somethign of what goes on behind closed doors.
TCAL responds to Ian Stevenson
Posted on 29-07-2011 19:08 | By TCAL
Below is TCALs response to incorrect statements made by Ian Stevenson earlier this week on Sunlive: 1. Mr Stevenson says TCAL made a $4.222 million loss for the last financial year. This is not true. This loss is an accounting loss due to a financial adjustment for taxation changes. This is not an operational loss. The taxation adjustment has been made due to a change in tax laws around building depreciation, which was aimed at preventing rental property owners claiming depreciation on their houses and receiving a tax benefit. The law also impacted commercial properties and effected a number of organisations across new Zealand. This adjustment has been reviewed and signed off by Audit New Zealand and also Councils tax advisors Toovey Eaton. 2.Mr Stevenson asks why there are no water rates or rates paid by TCAL, a commercial entity. We do pay water rates and rates! In our 2011 year end accounts just completed we have paid rates to TCC of $13,334 (exc GST) and water rates of $111,601 (exc GST). On top of this we pay TCC for IT support of $180,000 per annum and admin support of $10,000 per annum. 3.Mr Stevenson says council staff are offered $249 memberships in the pools' gymnasia with pool use thrown in for free. This is completely untrue. TCAL do not offer Council staff $249 gym memberships. As with any gym we offer corporate memberships being a 10% discount of full fee where 5 or more people from the same corporate join. This is a type of standard business offering. We have made this offer to Council staff. We have tried to remain impartial and only offer Council staff the rates we offer any other members in the public. 4.Mr Stevenson has made allegations that the numbers don't stack up to substantiate the impact of the current hot pools closure. Mr Stevenson has misunderstood the numbers. Currently the Hot Pools goes to fund the other four pools in Tauranga that we operate. This is good news, as we don't need more rates funding. So with the Mount Hot Pools closed, we have a shortfall of funding for the other four pools. We are seeking a loan from Council for this, that we will pay back ourselves. To explain the numbers - We will be losing approximately $126,000 a month in revenue. On top of this we will incur costs that do not cease in a short closure. The loss of revenue to fund the other pools, coupled with the on going expenditure will create a shortfall in total network funding for each month we are closed. 5. Mr Stevenson says in five years not one cruise ship passenger has ever asked for a massage at the hot pools. He says the cruise ships' own spas will be superior. We are not aware of any surveys being done however we agree that the three very basic and small massage rooms we currently offer would not entice cruise ship passengers. The redeveloped facility is offering a wellness suite catering for a range of treatments including signature treatments that could make use of local products such as kiwifruit, salt, comvita honey products and oils. The package including a soak experience in geothermally heated salt water is unique and something you would not experience on a cruise ship offering, or anywhere else in new Zealand! We also experience an increase in retail sales whenever there is a cruise ship in port. This tells us that they do come into the facility, but the offering currently is not enticing them. 6. Mr Stevenson says to meet the interest payments of $10 million at 7.5 per cent it will take 144 massages a day. Mr Stevenson has misunderstood the proposed funding. The whole facility will be paying off the debt, not just the massages! So this includes the wellness centre and the aquatic users. Along with this facility visitors will purchase food and beverages and merchandise. Also borrowing through Council allows TCAL to access much cheaper debt servicing rates due to Councils good credit rating. In the current estimates this is approximately 6.25%. 7. Mr Stevenson says there is no room at the Mount for that bus parking or even the car parking and it will put out-of-business 12 ratepayer owned wellness centres between Adams Ave and Bayfair, as well as seriously impacting on the cafes and restaurant near Marine Parade. In terms of the impact to the local cafes and restaurants, you may recall the outcry by these local businesses when the facility closed recently. It is envisaged that as a tourist destination our facility will positively impact the likes of restaurants and accommodation and retail businesses As mentioned above, we are offering a unique experience for a wellness treatment and a soak in hot therapy pools. We are not planning on offering standard beauty therapy treatments such as tanning or waxing or semi medical facials (laser treatment, etc). In respect of the café we are offering a limited service to our patrons. We have not included a commercial kitchen or fitout within our development proposal Tania Delahunty CEO TAURANGA CITY AQUATICS LTD
Conflicting Interets???
Posted on 29-07-2011 22:28 | By bailey
What an absolute sham. Ian Stevenson is an accountant who runs a gym. What a surprise to see him submitting all this crap about so called losses. Check his accounts and there will be a taxation adjustment on his property as well. Too many people in this with fingers in all pies. Ian Stevenson needs to shut up and worry about his own accounting practises and so called Councillors need to either be a Councillor or a MPS member - you can't be both Catherine Stewart.
TCAL SMOKE AND MIRRORS
Posted on 30-07-2011 08:32 | By RORTSCAM
This 'you say' 'we say' mentality cuts no ice with anyone.Spindoctoring propaganda and PR bull#### won't do the trick Ms Delahunty. Just produce a full and valid MOUNT HOT POOLS business case and let the public judge whose figures are more accurate.The massaging of and the creative accounting surrounding existing Aquatics figures gives no reason for any confidence.The problem is TCALs lack of transparency and any accountability.In addition TCALs ability to run any Aquatics business is seriously questioned.The track record to date is abysmal.TCC Ratepayers are being financially shafted.
Cheap Shots by a Toady
Posted on 30-07-2011 09:14 | By RORTSCAM
Bailey > very interesting if we are getting down to the personal level lets have your identity and particulars of your credentials. At least Stevenson has put himself out there but you have not.Once you do that then you can share all you know with us and we can investigate the lot including you.Either PUT UP OR SHUT UP.I am willing to bet you will not stand scrutiny.
Living for the future, not the past
Posted on 30-07-2011 11:02 | By Justaratepayer
I want to live in a city that is vibrant and alive. One that brings in tourists to visit international standard facilities - like the Mt Hot Pools REVAMPED. I want an art gallery, a modern city with a vibrant waterfront area. I want a museum and great events....and I'm prepared to pay for it. The Hot Pools revamp has the ability to put that area on the map. Just like people flock to Rotorua for the geothermal pools, and to Hanmer for their pools, the Mt will have an added edge. Get on with the revamp and less of this oiling of the squeaky wheel. Come on "silent majority", speak up.
SPECIAL GYM PRICES FOR TCC STAFF
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:31 | By Ian Stevenson
TCC staff and contractors have confirmed the price paid as $249, I would note that this is considerably more of a discount than 10% noted. The end result is that TCC ratepayers have to pay more to cover the increased losses.
HOT POOLS PROFITS?
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:33 | By Ian Stevenson
Simply there are not any, Wayne Moultrie noted at the Monday meeting that there are 150+ staff at TCAL, that and other costs make a 'profit” impossible. The only possible way for that to happen is TCAL consider that the $$$ paid into TCAL annually by TCC from rates of $4.867m+ is 'income” which it is not.
LOST REVENUE FIGURES
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:34 | By Ian Stevenson
Stated below is $126,000, previously in June 2011 that stated as being $160,000, it would seem that TCAL is getting nearer to the truth here but we are not there as yet. TCAL's own figures produced in Jan 2009 show a lot less that this. When the numbers and amounts stated by TCAL are looked at produce a result that you can't believe you must ask a question or two. I am still awaiting Official Information Act disclosure from TCC/TCAL on this.
MASSAGING THE CRUSIE SHIPS
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:35 | By Ian Stevenson
Stated below is $126,000, previously in June 2011 it is stated as being $160,000, it would seem that TCAL is getting nearer to the truth here but we are not there as yet. TCAL's own figures produced in Jan 2009 show a lot less that this. When the numbers and amounts stated by TCAL are looked at produce a result that you can't believe you must ask a question or two. I am still awaiting Official Information Act disclosure from TCC/TCAL on this.
MORE COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES THAT ADD TO THE LOSSES
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:36 | By Ian Stevenson
The plans include the day spa, cafe etc these are all directly competing with existing businesses in the area, an increase in 'retails sales” does not mean that there is millions of dollars of revenue from massages, day spa activities etc, the information TCC/TCAL already has clearly shows that, it is being ignored as 'Inconvenient”! 'Inconvenient” is about as far as the business plan goes anyway. It is clear that TCAL intend to expand significantly the commercial activities at the Hot Pools, although that will create a multitude of jobs that will also mean a significant cost to ratepayers, that is the bottom line of it. Bill Faulkner said: - Anything TCC does costs more than anyone else ...
MORE TCC DEBT AND INTEREST FROM TCAL
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:36 | By Ian Stevenson
The interest rate of 7.5% (approx TCC interest cost over a few years) and the 114 (not 144) one hour massages @ $60 each required to pay the interest bill was to illustrate the huge amount of debt and interest cost and what it would take from 'new sales income” to just pay the interest. No new information is offered here to clearly show otherwise. TCAL note an interest rate of 6.25% which maybe true today, however by the time the money is borrowed the actual interest rates are very likely to have increased. Of course using TCC's actual interest rate may only result from the proposed merging of debt as planned by various Councils in the area.
TRAFFIC PARKING BUSES AND SO ON
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:37 | By Ian Stevenson
These are not my comments they were made by others and it would be appropriate that they answered these comments, however the comments made in the presentations of the other parties is justified and correct. A huge amount of tourist traffic would have to come through Tauranga as it does in Rotorua to possibly justify such a Wellness facility, at that time private enterprise will surely build it. I challenge the TCAL director to put there own money up: - Build, and run this facility without a guarantee from TCC. Come on lads lets see you put your own shirt on the line here!
@ JUSTARATEPAYER
Posted on 30-07-2011 13:42 | By YOGI BEAR
That is a sad blog ... WANT ... WANT ... WANT ... I actually would not mind at all if "YOU PAID FOR WHAT YOU WANTED" but like many sadly you expect all others to pay for all of these things. Get your own cheque book out and pay not the ratepayers. Of course the examples you give in Rotorua are privately paid for and run, that is the difference here.
RATES AND WATER RATES
Posted on 30-07-2011 14:24 | By Ian Stevenson
How can TCAL pay water rates when water meters have only just been fitted in the last few months that resulted in an awareness of significant leaks as the Hot Pools. $13,334 in Rates is not the full amount by any means, how about TCAL post up the actual water and rate demands as paid for the five facilities for all to see the truth of it.
LOVE ALL THESE POSTINGS
Posted on 30-07-2011 16:49 | By PLONKER
Never before in the history off TCC (and former parts threof) has there been such a well foundered effort by individuals to "EXTRACT" the truth out of Council. Never before as such an unacceptable level of "PR" crap also been tabled in an attempt to deflect the questions and comments. It is clear that is they all "COME CLEAN" then the project will have to be canned, who will then pay all the bills racked up for POINTLESS concultants and pointless POINTY HEADS over many years?
POINT OUT THE GOOD BITS
Posted on 31-07-2011 10:30 | By TERMITE
Like if there are any to find, this all has the ring of desperation to have and hold onto some BOFFINS silly scheme regardless of the cost, time and effort needed ... just because we can ...
bailey I believe you meant Conflicts of Interest
Posted on 31-07-2011 13:08 | By MINDER
Lets deal with Councillor Catherine Stewart -she has a limited conflict of interest as a submitter to the RMA application by TCAL but once the Independent Commissioners decision was given and endorsed by Council that ceased to be so because she is now pursuing the current official TCC line in opposing the appeal.On the other hand those Councillors who still personally support the TCAL appeal now have the conflict of interest and should not vote in Council on any thing relating to this matter. Deputy Mayor David Stewart who until he recently resigned was a TCAL director has an absolute conflict of interest and should not now or in the future be barred from having any input into TCAL matters whether relating to the RMA Appeal or otherwise.Trust that sets out what seems to be the position.If you are still in doubt go and get a written opinion from a Public Law specialist and share it with us.
Bring back Leisure Co!
Posted on 02-08-2011 20:57 | By Mountee
Since TCAL took over everything has gone downhill! All staff had to re apply 4 jobs lifeguards all on minimum wage. You can pack shelves at the supermarket for the same pay without any responsibilities. If the CEO is on 170k a year I can't even imagine what the other management staff are on?? This leak was bound to happen as things went wrong at the hot pools nothing would be fixed as thesame response would always b told "wait 4 the redevelopment" now they r in the shit! I also think it's bulls@&$ the staff working in the mornings get hounded for the water temps been low. LIKE ITS THEIR FAULT! the only people who complained were the retired who came in at opening to walk up & down & up & down MOANING! Get a life, if it's too cold for ya why keep payinging and turning up? Can't wait for the pools to re open an see all the new problems unfold and trust me... They will still have something to moan about!
@ MOUNTEE
Posted on 06-08-2011 16:46 | By PLONKER
You are right it is all going down hill since the creation of TCAL, in fat the truth of it was clearly shown when Moultrie, David Stewart and Pick Rick did not show up at the Hot Pools meeting on Sunday to hear the citizens views, the NO-SHOW says a lot.
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