Ignore Gareth - he’s hallucinating

Don't waste too much time on Gareth Morgan's current hallucinations.

His ill-conceived foray into the world of cats, regular rants on the evil of residential property investment, despite personally splurging mega millions on a Mount Maunganui luxury mansion, stretches the credibility.

Being a self-anointed guru on all topics suddenly the serialised nonsense pumping up his book ‘Are we there yet - the future of the Treaty of Waitangi' appears out of left field.

Mr Morgan, must accept there is only one Treaty, (Maori version) with three Articles, a benign document all Kiwis can all live with.

There is no treaty partnership, no special obligations no promises and no principles other than those fabricated via political and judicial fictions during the last 40 years.

No modernisation of Treaty terms are possible because they remain same as 1840 and cannot be altered to suit special interest iwi groups. Anyway, the Treaty is an historical relic of no significance today.

There is no place in New Zealand for un-elected representation on Government or local authorities based on race, particularly as part-Maori are no more indigenous than all Kiwis born in NZ.

Thankfully, Kiwis have enough nous to work this out, even though the media can't.

R Paterson, Matapihi.

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130 comments

NO SPECIAL PRIVILEGES??

Posted on 05-02-2015 14:37 | By crazyhorse

Team denied entry into basketball tournament because coach isn't "Maori" A basketball coach says it is unfair his team of girls were barred from this week's National Maori Basketball Tournament because he is not Maori. Andrew McKay coached a Ngati Whakaue team which won the under-15 division at last year's tournament in Rotorua. THE But his application in October to enter the same team in the under-17 grade for this week's competition, which starts today, was declined by the organisers because he was non-Maori! Golly,and we are the the racists. How do you figure this Mr Patterson, great letter as usual,maybe we should ask Gareth he knows it all, . Apartheid sports in NZ, they don't have those in South Africa, it's illegal!!.


Comforting assumptions

Posted on 05-02-2015 15:41 | By waxing

It must be so comforting to be able to assert and assume that "Kiwis have enough nous" to agree with you, even though you have no proof of this whatsoever. Of such things are asserted "truths" created.


TOWARDS WAXY'S NZ

Posted on 05-02-2015 20:50 | By crazyhorse

K1W1'S have no choice over who their parents are. Birth is a lottery and that is what makes it so unfair. Two babies born on the same day, in the same town, in the same country, have different rights and privileges simply because of their race. "Imagined or not". Something needs to change, this is fact, not fiction campers and remember you are the racists!!, YOU ARE THE REDNECKS.'Especially if you question or say no to a "trougher"!.


crazyhorse, Pakeha trougher

Posted on 06-02-2015 10:54 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse likes to abuse Maori with the term Treaty trougher. His abuse is brainless. Treaty settlements have returned less than $2 billion to Maori over a period of 25 years. The Government budget is about $100 billion per year. This means that total Treaty settlements have been about 0.1% of government spending. That is not a trough. Pakeha troughers like crazyhorse want to keep the wealth that was stolen from Maori simply to satisfy their own greed.


TROUGHING WILL NEVER END

Posted on 07-02-2015 14:12 | By crazyhorse

Treaty claims will never end. For one reason or another past settlements of claims weren't good enough. It might just be because we want more now, and we're breaking our word, but that doesn't matter because we've got the Treaty, and it says we can do anything. If we want more and more then we're entitled to have it and we're going to have it, and there's going to be trouble if we don't. Nothing else is ‘justice'. And even if at some future time we do decide we won't make another claim, that's not the end of the story, because then the Crown and Maori just move on into a ‘new phase in their relationship'. You are never going to escape us, and our desires are insatiable. Land, wealth, power, the works.


FUTURE SCENARIO??

Posted on 07-02-2015 14:16 | By crazyhorse

"Treaty troughers" initiative for a "brand New" History Of Aotearoa”. to be "edited" by someone such as Sir Hugh Kawharu or Dr. Danny Keenan. "new"revised yet again history from a "Maori perspective"!. It would have the objective of conditioning the up-coming generations to believe a fabricated history, according to the (discredited) Waitangi Tribunal. (The researchers for the book, might also have difficulty getting paid for their work, until they had portrayed the Maori as the aggrieved party). Written records of who said what would also be ‘reinterpreted' to fit. How much easier it would be in twenty years time, for Maori claims to keep "appearing", if the old history was replaced by the new history. To achieve this, Maori would pump the Education system full of ""new history""from their paid revisionist 'historians re revising the already revised fairy tale of the "atrocities" suffered because of wicked white settlers.


crazyhorse, Pakeha trougher 2

Posted on 07-02-2015 14:38 | By Peter Dey

Maori had about $20 billion of land stolen by the Government. They have had about $2 billion of compensation returned. crazyhorse and other taxpayers still have $18 billion that belongs to Maori. Crazyhorse wants to keep it. That makes crazyhorse a Pakeha trougher. He wants to keep $18 billion that he is not entitled to, simply because of greed.


Crazy1

Posted on 07-02-2015 15:17 | By waxing

Somehow you manage to completely ignore special interest tournaments that are held for and by special interest groups - eg Marist etc. But it's so much easier to be intellectually lazy and just concentrate on Maori isn't it?


Crazy2

Posted on 07-02-2015 15:19 | By waxing

I'm not interested in calling people names. Again, it is intellectually lazy discussion.


$2 billion of compensation

Posted on 07-02-2015 19:54 | By crazyhorse

It's easy to do, but, you have forgotten that the separatist society that part maori have built for themselves, all payed for by you know who eg health, education, language, tv, radio, sports teams, and all the rest and there are alot of them, cost in the region of a billion dollars a "year", why are you not adding that in, or is that to much truth you, only want people to get a wafer thin mint slice of truth, hmm, a true trougher, I take my hat off to you, a shining example of what we are dealing with, thank you take some compensation as a reward!.


Treaty ruling 'distorts NZ history'

Posted on 08-02-2015 08:52 | By crazyhorse

One of the top "treaty troughers" researchers has come clean on the latest revised history from the Waitangi tribunal, Paul Moon a history professor has criticised a Waitangi Tribunal decision that Maori chiefs who signed the Treaty of Waitangi did not cede sovereignty as "distorting New Zealand history". "This is not a concern about some trivial detail, but over the fundamental history of our country, which the Tribunal has got manifestly wrong." "In particular, the Tribunal alleges that 'Britain went into the treaty negotiation intending to acquire sovereignty, and therefore the power to make and enforce law over both Maori and Pakeha'. This is simply not true," says Professor Moon, "and there is an overwhelming body of evidence which proves precisely the opposite.


Getting crazier crazy

Posted on 08-02-2015 10:09 | By waxing

Treaty claims will continue as long as Treaty injustices continue. Perhaps if crazy was up to date with things and knew what was going on around him, he might understand this. Meanwhile crazy - what do you accept as the best History of New Zealand written to date?


bare-faced lie!

Posted on 08-02-2015 13:39 | By crazyhorse

"lies" start to fill newspapers in early February every year, along with the turgid prose of academic treaty troughers telling us that we should keep shovelling cash to tribes despite grievances being settled. These lies include: 1. That Ngapuhi never ceded sovereignty, another lie trotted out this year, this time with the backing of a report from the hopelessly conflicted Waitangi Tribunal. Claimant logic is simple: The Waitangi Tribunal said so; the Waitangi Tribunal is official; therefore it must be true. But the claim is a bare-faced lie: Article 1 of the treaty says the chiefs cede to the Queen of England for ever the entire Sovereignty of their country. Missionary William Colenso records the debate that shows the chiefs understood what ceding sovereignty meant. Chiefs at Kohimarama 20 years later reaffirmed their commitment to this deals.


half truth crazyhorse

Posted on 09-02-2015 11:13 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse ignores fact that contradicts his opinions. The Maori version of the Treaty of Waitangi granted the British Government only the right to govern New Zealand. It was granted Kawanatanga, the right to govern. Maori were granted Tino Rangatiratanga, the right for Maori chiefs to retain their authority.


can't sustain any argument

Posted on 09-02-2015 12:44 | By waxing

Peter - crazy can't sustain any sort of discussion or argument. When challenged, he simply uses the old tactic of moving the goal posts. And you are right - he has no idea of the concept of "te tino rangatiratanga" and its difference to "te kawanatanga katoa". Unfortunately, most of his generation don't or they try to avoid the issue by saying it is not relevant today. Gareth Morgan is right - future generations will be better educated and better race relations and improved socio-economic status for Maori as our Treaty partners will result.


The irony is,

Posted on 09-02-2015 17:31 | By robin bell

that when it suits crazy and friends switch from the the English language version to the Maori. This after rubbishing the notion that there are any "principles" contained in either. Mind boggling, if it was not so serious it would be laughable. Robin Bell.


Peter Dey

Posted on 09-02-2015 18:02 | By Kenworthlogger

Goes on and on about how the Goverment stole land of the Maoris. Peter did the Maoris ever steal land off each other in warfare? How come he never comments on this and seek address from other tribes?


Gareth Morgan's

Posted on 09-02-2015 18:34 | By crazyhorse

conclusion that the treaty process is a success because the 'treaty is now taken to mean "whatever Maori leaders and the Crown", as the public's representatives, agree it means” . How bloody ridiculous is that, and he talks about a written constitution going along the same lines, have a think about this campers, now the treaty means whatever maori or Gov't want it to mean, also not a word on the Ten new coastal rights for tribes,as usual all done through the back door, if these measures are so popular with everyone why hide them, why keep them quiet, you talk about history, any old history will do for a trougher as long as the payments keep coming eh boys!, I'm a lot of things but I'm not a ###### bludger.


Gareth is correct,

Posted on 10-02-2015 07:56 | By robin bell

crazy is wrong.Again. Treaty negotiations are by definition mutual agreement, or not,whatever the case may be. They can ONLY be between gov't and Maori. Its called Democracy. You are waffling again crazy, take a walk on your lovely Queensland beach. Robin Bell.


Kenworthlogger, pre-Treaty is impossible

Posted on 10-02-2015 12:59 | By Peter Dey

Kenworthlogger is absolutely correct that Maori stole land off each other before the Treaty of Waitangi. But there is no way we can do anything about that, and it does not make theft of Maori land by the Government ok. We have historical records of Government injustice to Maori. Quite rightly Governments now feel obliged to make redress.


wrong again crazy

Posted on 10-02-2015 13:15 | By waxing

I shouldn't expect anything different, but crazy is wrong again. Gareth Morgan was talking about how the Treaty is implemented within settlements over Treaty's injustices. But much more convenient to twist his words to your purpose eh crazy? Still you have to have sympathy. Pity the poor old man so set in his ways, still living in the blaze of the British Empire, unable to see past how some Pakeha ignored their Queen to rip off Maori so that they could then rip off some of their fellow Pakeha trying to settle here. Got a long history of family land here crazy?


Kenworthlogger

Posted on 10-02-2015 13:35 | By robin bell

what Maori did pre-treaty is irrelevant. Peter knows this, you on the other hand don't seem to understand the rapacious greed of some early N.Z. settlers. If you did you would understand the need for fair compensation, and NO time does not make it right. Just ask those who suffered from child abuse etc. All abuse has to be paid for, sooner or later. Robin Bell.


Racially-based subversion

Posted on 10-02-2015 14:39 | By crazyhorse

So long as New Zealand remains a democracy, Morgan's suggestion remains un-implementable, to suggest an undemocratic and racially-based subversion of the very pillars our nation and society rest upon is both ridiculous and contravenes the Treaty he is supposedly standing up for, you shouldn't be elected, appointed or judged on racial bias, but on the quality of work you do for all New Zealanders. Gareth Morgan's blatantly racist and undemocratic views of our Parliament are not the way forward for New Zealand. The reinstatement of an upper house would be a backwards step for starters; to reinstate it in the way Morgan suggests would be to move New Zealand in the opposite direction to all other Western nations,by Devon Mace,17 years old,and who said all the youngwere"brainwashed"


Ignore Gareth

Posted on 10-02-2015 14:42 | By crazyhorse

To see such sense and even wisdom from someone only 17 gives one faith in the future of our great little country. The sooner the media banish Gareth Morgan to the media wasteland he deserves the better. The man is loopy. How achieving wealth by association as in his case, qualifies one to have credibility as a spokesman I am at a loss to understand.


Oh dear crazy

Posted on 10-02-2015 16:18 | By waxing

How charming that you now resort to the views of a 17 year old.....


Apparently its ok to steal land. If your a maori

Posted on 10-02-2015 17:25 | By Kenworthlogger

Oh i get it now. What Peter and Robin are saying is it was ok if Maori stole land of Maori. And they are not held accountable for this where as if the govt does this it is wrong. Sounds quite raceist to me. Should be quite easy to prove. The land was either stolen or not. Should not make any difference who stole it. It seems that to quote Robin that time has made it ok when the thief was indeed a Maori. smacks of raceism Robin. No suprises there.


HEY WAXY

Posted on 10-02-2015 18:21 | By crazyhorse

Give me an answer about your researcher Paul Moon saying the Waitangi tribunal has "twisted the truth, distorted history, twisted the treaty,QUOTE, Professor Moon said the most concerning aspect of the report was the way the Tribunal seemed to be re-writing history with little apparent regard for evidence. "This report may serve the interests of some groups," he says, "but it distorts New Zealand history in the process, and seriously undermines the Tribunal's credibility". As Gareth says the treaty can mean anything the Gov't or maori want. Democracy the troughers way!.


crazy steedy thingy

Posted on 10-02-2015 18:46 | By YOGI BEAR

yeah mate, Gareth has already well and truly wandered off into loopy land, there is no coming back from it either. The scribe of the letter clearly has a profound understanding of the intent of the real treaty (Maori version that was signed) and the nefarious efforts of a radical minority to seek a phsuedo dictatorship of themselves on an unelected gravy train of self indulgence and ego tripping. The last sentence sums it up and where 96% non-part-Maori rest via opinion and astute observation.


LICENCE TO PRINT MONEY

Posted on 10-02-2015 22:36 | By crazyhorse

How many people know that the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975 gives the race based Waitangi Tribunal "exclusive" authority to determine the meaning of the Treaty as embodied in the "English" and "Maori texts", that's right campers, exclusive rights to twist it anyway they want, as we are seeing with the Ngapuhi never ceded sovereignty, bull ####, and it is bull ####!.


Kenworthlogger,

Posted on 11-02-2015 07:54 | By robin bell

No you don't "get it".When the British introduced their law Pre-emption was introduced. What that meant Kenny, is that Maori could only sell land to the crown. When they (Maori) refused to sell any more They (the British Settlers) simply took it anyway they could. Under British law that is a crime. British law was refined in Britain to overcome the very same abuses you accuse Maori of. My position is not racist as you claim Kenny, I simply believe in justice for ALL. Do you? Robin Bell.


The Crown

Posted on 11-02-2015 15:31 | By YOGI BEAR

That was done to stop all the land grabbing by both the Moari and the settlors. That then meant that Maori had protection regarding the little bits of land that they occupied. Now of course you will recall (your bent version I am sure) that Maori started the land wars of the 1860's. saying all doesn't it.


crazy will never change

Posted on 11-02-2015 15:48 | By waxing

Moon is but one historian whose views are not accepted by other professional historians - perhaps you might like to read wider rather than rely on the views of a 17 year old. Even then, like yogi and kenny, you prefer to be very selective in your referrals to Moon and others so you only take what suits your prejudices. Pathetic and the best thing is to pity you and ignore you. You are irrelevant.


Moon is but one historian

Posted on 11-02-2015 17:22 | By crazyhorse

Hmmmmmm, Waxy, so Paul moon one of NZ leading historians,a supplier of "revised" history to the Waitangi tribunal is all of a sudden "an outcaste" by the treaty industry, the same tribunal that uses history dug up by researchers to "suite"remember wax we have proven in some cases money was not forthcoming to researchers unless the facts fitted,honest Ed Durie, head of the tribunal admitted this wax,as did another 2 members John Robinson and a researcher Dr Giselle Byrnes, anyway waxy your saying Moon is the "only one" of New Zealands recognised by troughers and apologists that doesn't agree with the ceding sovereignty thing, is that what your saying, the only one wax??.


More half truth crazyhorse

Posted on 11-02-2015 20:42 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse is repeating false claims that he continues to make even though they are not soundly based. Giselle Byrnes did not accuse the Waitangi Tribunal of research fraud. She criticised the methodology. John Robinson always presented only his side of his story while working for the Tribunal. Now that he has been a co-author of the very unscientific book Twisting the Treaty his credibility is badly damaged. Eddie Durie came out saying that the Tribunal had to make sure its integrity was high. He never condoned research wrongdoing. Too much half-truth crazyhorse.


Crazyhorse wants it both ways,

Posted on 11-02-2015 21:55 | By robin bell

Paul Moon is correct in saying the British were not interested in New Zealand, until the actions of British subjects forced their hand. The treaty in English, the first copy drawn up,mentions sovereignty,the copy in Maori which crazy and co recognise does not. It is dishonest to suggest the people crazy describes as primitive savages understood what sovereignty meant. Who were the lawyers who explained the ramifications to Maori. There were none. Treaty doctrine,recognised world wide demands the senior partner in such transactions be responsible. It took 150 odd years but it has happened. All the rights denied are restored. New Zealand at last leads the world. Robin Bell.


Waxed off

Posted on 12-02-2015 08:33 | By YOGI BEAR

So "other professional historians", means who? Surely there is something better than the completely discredited Janet Wilmshurst that Robin seems to have a most unusual affinity with, a love of blind infatuation to such an extent that the selective word is dragged out to mean anything and everything desired. Oh that sounds like the Waitangi "Self feeding troughers" Tribunal.


kenworthlogger, no land theft was ok

Posted on 12-02-2015 09:55 | By Peter Dey

It was not ok for Maori to steal land off Maori, but if it happened before 1840 the Government then or now has no way of doing anything about it. Theft of land by Maori after 1840 broke the law and was dealt with by the law. Theft of land from Maori by the Government after 1840 was not fully dealt with until the Waitangi Tribunal in 1985.


Wisechief

Posted on 12-02-2015 12:00 | By Wise Chief

Theft of lands by Maori from Maori today has been enabled via Treaty of Waitangi settlements process whereupon government endorses natural family groupings who are then designated legit negotiating teams. In many cases these are inlaws from other IWI & Hapu who married into Senior land owning lines. These gaining the spoils along with whangai's-adopted children who in many cases now have control of much of their lands. The other avenue is Maori Land Court adjudicating via dodgy wills supposedly leaving land to an in-law supposedly for a life interest only. As members die off due to age the rest of the families who really own the lands forget facts of how outsiders came to have the land assuming it was given legally when not the case. My immediate family has very little lands left and yet are direct Nunui/Ariki bloodline to Captain.Our enemies living among us.


Land theft?

Posted on 12-02-2015 13:13 | By YOGI BEAR

is that another "myth" Pete, think we have had enough of those already. Anyway you are trying to say all land theft is wrong, is that correct? perhaps stealing money from others is also in that category? perhaps making up stories (as done at the Waitangi Tribunal often) is the same? I am sure they are but you don't seem to think so, somehow it is all ok.


AWAY WITH THE FAIRIES

Posted on 12-02-2015 16:00 | By ROCCO

Ding dong Bell and Deydreamer are Waxing lyrical as usual. Don't let the facts get in the way of myths fantasies and arrant stuffwittery because any whiff of the truth might suffocate you. LOL.


Give up YOGI BEAR

Posted on 12-02-2015 16:49 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR you only repeat the same abusive nonsense, nothing new. You should give up writing here.


BUTCHERY REWARDED

Posted on 12-02-2015 17:04 | By crazyhorse

Tragic events in our history where one tribe culls another should not be rewarded, this is where the waitangi tribunal should not be hearing these claims,no cross examination, the claimant rolls up and gives their "version,of history. Ngati toa of Porirua settled for a reported $74 million, they had been mistreated by the crown, hmm,this is a truly bizarre settlement for the following reasons, 1, ngati toa moved to wellington from kawhiain the 1920'swith chief te rauparaha. 2, on the way murdered many maori and took their land,3,they simply killed cooked, enslaved, men, woman,children,4,te rauparaha and his nephew were also responsible for the murder of 11 special policemen. 5,compensation involves $10 million for loss of marine empire, it didn't exist!5,every act of violence towards innocent victims and there were many were after he signed the treaty, and he signed it "twice"


ROCCO, nothing new give up

Posted on 12-02-2015 17:08 | By Peter Dey

Rocco you are writing nothing new just abuse. You should give up


BUTCHERY REWARDED

Posted on 12-02-2015 17:16 | By crazyhorse

6, Shortly after the killings at wairau he denounced the queen, saying she maybe the queen of the white people but he was the "king"of maori. 7, Following the fighting in the hutt valley in ""1846"" thats after the treaty was signed campers governor George Grey arrested him for receiving and sending secret instructions to local maori who were "attacking settlers"yet, part of the compensation was for the arrest of te rauparaha???huh!, 8, this settlement is in contradiction to the treaty of waitangi which held promise of equality as a British subject, ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF CORRUPTION IN THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL AND NATIONAL GOV'T, READ WEEP AND HOPEFULLY BE ANGRY!.


We can always rely on rocco,

Posted on 12-02-2015 18:00 | By robin bell

to give an incisive fact laden comment. You should be very proud of yourself, insulting always pays dividends eh! wocco. Nah!!! Robin Bell.


Peter

Posted on 12-02-2015 18:05 | By YOGI BEAR

Thanks for the really helpful, logical, practical and common sense advice there. Here is a challenge for you ... I will stop if you stop writing garbage letters and even worse blogs, take up the challenge, I dear you.


FACTS ON EARLY SETTLERS

Posted on 12-02-2015 18:42 | By crazyhorse

They did not all come from one place, they did not arrive in one canoe, or ''ding dong Bell's"" 300 the size of aircraft carriers Lol,they did not all arrive at the same time, they did not all arrive at the same place, they would kill, eat, and take the land of rival tribes or iwi, these groups could not live with each other, given these facts who is this group calling themselves maori that according to the waitangi tribunal had ownership of NZ and all natural and unnatural phenomena with in it?. On what grounds do they rule europeans out of their ownership model, the treaty was signed in 1840 it included article 2 all the people of NZ, there were about 2,000 europeans here then, now the soverignty movement states all these separate iwi as one,european's were here in 1838 yet they ignore their rights, isn't that racis


Thanks Peter

Posted on 13-02-2015 07:51 | By Kenworthlogger

thanks for your honest comments Peter. Have a good Day.


Wisechief

Posted on 13-02-2015 10:29 | By Wise Chief

You are correct Porangi Hioho with your statement Maori did not all arrive at same time. The giant catamarans of Atuamatua or Te Arawa today were here several millennium before those of much later resettlement phase which ensued after tsunami and major volcanic upheavals. The first large megalithic city long buried under hundreds of meters of ash etc. Also know that from Spanish and other foreign records predating Captain Cook the population was said to be about a million of which whaler introduced small pox,measles, venereal diseases and flu's dropped them like fly's killing near half of them in a decade. There was so much death many went totally mad they not knowing what hit them. Add all the musket stuff and this again wiped a massive chunk out all over again. Rangitihi alone losing 3000 in one day to Hone Heke and their muskets. see story-Pareraututu fasting.


Kenworthlogger

Posted on 13-02-2015 16:36 | By YOGI BEAR

Nice comment for Peter to hang on to for life. Sadly though you have been mislead a bit, Peter has admitted that all Maori legends and myths are a complete fabrication and have always been so. So if you like what he writes then you my like fairy tale type stuff right? If not and perhaps you prefer a little more substance then you will need to look elsewhere ASAP. PS not Robin ... same same ...


Yogi

Posted on 14-02-2015 09:18 | By Kenworthlogger

My only point was to see if Peter, Robin or wisechief would concede a few points about maori which Peter did hence i thanked him. Robin and Wisechief dont seem to be able to concede anything so its pointless discussing it further with them. They are trying to dictate to you a new version of history...


Your Not a full Maori

Posted on 14-02-2015 15:33 | By TaurangaBorn&Proud

wow whats your problem with me not being full maori(i realize this) that does not make me non-maori, you consider yourself a kiwi?. exactly what is that? last time i checked that word is derived from Te Reo Maori. treaty settlements are a joke imo you can't put a price on land. but john key sure can (especially to foreign investors


Wisechief

Posted on 14-02-2015 19:07 | By Wise Chief

Tauranga Born & Proud has right attitude, which recent immigrants who seek to impose their revised colonial uk euro-centric civil, social, legal, ideals upon an already confused now much poorer pissed off NZ. Topping the old school pale crew majority adding fuel to the fire are hundreds of thousands of unhappy vociferous moaning Pom's & aloof SA,Indians & Chinese. These if one listens enough are constantly moaning over whats right in UK or where ever they come from against whats wrong with NZ, which a young prize winning writer who voiced the truth long hidden from world about Kiwi's dirty secrets about Tall Poppy Syndrome.We are as Garth say's a willful often vain arrogant hurtful stubborn and hateful media brain washed anti-Maori pale crew.My advice is we stop talking & work hard to prepare for massive sudden weather changes as result of JET STREAM CHANGE. Help our young survive.


Kenworthlogger

Posted on 14-02-2015 23:22 | By YOGI BEAR

Yes, Robin and Wisechief (not) are indeed trying to propagate their own desired and self beneficial ideas on all, not just me. I would not have a problem with that except that what they are saying are completely wrong, self indulgent and self gratifying. besides it is wrong to let these inappropriate comments sit unchallenged. Peter will concede a few things eg, that all Maori story's, Myths and legends are all made up. Robin after reading that did not even stop to take a look/breath and onward he went as blind as before, no change, just amazing. Wisechief will be Robin in disguise but not a very good one, makes little difference as the same level of lack of sanity prevails throughout.


Pure Maori's

Posted on 14-02-2015 23:24 | By YOGI BEAR

Just for the record there are none in NZ or in fact the world. By the best guess there are none at or above 50%, there are none much in the 40's either. The main lot sit around 20-25% and statistically it is considered that there will at best be 200-250 years and there will then be nothing identifiable as Maori in NZ. It is simple a fact of how it is.


I AGREE WISECHIEF

Posted on 15-02-2015 00:32 | By crazyhorse

Until unbiased archaeologists look at various sites in NZ we will all be kept wondering,there is to much evidence covered up or hidden, or just completely "hushed" up, I enjoy your comments greatly, wisechief. Respect me te pai hiahia ki a koe , me tou whanau


Wistle chef

Posted on 15-02-2015 01:01 | By YOGI BEAR

Mate you have been taking lessons from Robin, that last blog was arrant nonsense. The first historical record of Maori (islanders) was around the mid 1300's, the date has been confirmed by reference to the written naval records of General Zheng He when his fleet of SEVEN naval ships (note 'ships' not the odd hollow log or seven). there were no 'massive populations here even then they built up over time by mingling with the folks Maori recorded as being here already. This is all simple stuff and well documented already. Please go have a read and come back when you are enlightened and up to date.


YOGI BEAR, cotradicted by facts again

Posted on 15-02-2015 18:27 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR keeps trying to wind people up by ignoring facts that he has been unable to disprove. There is a Zheng He society in China in honour if the famous sailor and explorer. They have no record of Zheng He ever coming to New Zealand.


Crazyhorse, scientists are unbiased

Posted on 15-02-2015 18:41 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse believes that the scientific results of archaeologists and anthropologists are biased. He has no evidence that any scientist is biased. He just does not like their results. He wants to believe that there were people living in New Zealand before Maori arrived about 1250 AD, but the scientists say there is no evidence of any settlers in New Zealand before Maori arrived. There is now a new book TANGATA WHENUA just published containing the reasons why scientists believe that Maori arrived in New Zealand first. Crazyhorse has completely lost this argument.


Give a fool enough rope,

Posted on 15-02-2015 22:12 | By robin bell

and he will surely hang himself. Way to go yogi!!! Admiral Zheng He,( according to yogi's latest drivel) dropped off a few Maori (islanders) around the mid 1300s,date CONFIRMED by reference to The Admirals "written" naval records. He was a great seaman, There is no doubt,but he must be the only Admiral that sailed the "SEVEN" seas whilst still in his mothers womb. Born 1371 died 1433. Your spending too much time in the hot house yogi. Your "favourite" adversary, Robin Bell.


.

Posted on 16-02-2015 01:42 | By YOGI BEAR

Who? You are not my adversary, in fact you don't even rate as worthy of a meaningful debate as you are unable to assimilate simple facts and detail from you own corner. Yes is as the man in charge of the fleet (say early 1400's) would put a verifiable date of Maori arrival in NZ now wouldn't it.


Good comment Peter, but

Posted on 16-02-2015 01:47 | By YOGI BEAR

When you say "scientists are unbiased" is very good, but you need to continue on with why. That factor is that real scientists are peer reviewed by others who are knowledgeable and proficient in a given field. Sadly Janet Wilmshurst and the likes follow a different creed, that generally means that they themselves don't write anything, they don't really do any research. What they actually do is collect money and rubber stamp what they are told to rubber stamp or give back the money they got. That makes for quite a important distinction between the two groups. Sadly for real NZ people there is little research monies available to pay for independent "real" research that is verified professionally and independently.


Give a fool a rope

Posted on 16-02-2015 01:53 | By YOGI BEAR

Gotcha Robin .... well done for taking the bait. Perhaps you should give a call to Peter (your maty mate in crime here) and have a con-flab before writing, I would recommend doing that before going to Wellington to be told what to respond with. Robin has confirmed The naval existence of General Zheng He. In fact I was recently over in China and took the time to see the records available to the Zheng He Society and to read them, took a while to find the parts where he was sailing around NZ, very detailed, very accurate descriptions of the horde that was dropped off in NZ, numbers everything. Shame on you Peter, again shooting off without evidence of facts again. PS do I put you commentary in the "Myths" basket you created?


Robin

Posted on 16-02-2015 01:54 | By YOGI BEAR

Hot houses, you are on the wrong page here for that, try "Tropical Plant House debate heats up". in case you have not noted, they are going to close it down.


Scientists are unbiased??

Posted on 16-02-2015 08:22 | By crazyhorse

Troughing NZ historians, like so many others , have a huge investment in 'established” knowledge, and it is very difficult for actual facts to overturn a deeply held mindset. Indeed, one would seriously wonder how ancient peoples managed to miss a couple of islands as big as ours, while at the same time locating and populating and extensively traveling among many islands infinitely smaller than NZ all over the Pacific. But let us remember, after all, a long history of academics selecting only 'facts” and material that fit their preconceived perceptions while ignoring and/or discarding those which do not fit with the prevailing paradigm of their time. There is an alternative history of NZ to the official one, and it often shows up in material evidence discarded by those who cannot come to accept the validity of that material evidence when it is at variance with their own prior beliefs


MAYBE, MAYBE NOT?

Posted on 16-02-2015 08:45 | By crazyhorse

You're probably thinking here we go again, Why haven't we heard about any of these sites It's because there was a moratorium covertly placed on archaeological research. In 2004, Minister of Conservation Chris Carter was asked just how many archaeological sites such as Waipoua's were restricted from public visits. The answer will shock you: Carter admitted that 105 sites were embargoed, and that this was because 'DOC administers the New Zealand Archaeological Associations Central file” and 'file keepers may create sensitive files if this is requested by the site recorder.” A lot of people have been angered by Carter's admission and that of his Associate Minister at the time, The man who decided that Waipoua forest records wouldn't be available for viewing until 2063 was archaeologist Michael Taylor. why, ya got'a ask why?.


ROBIN'S MATE SAY'S!

Posted on 16-02-2015 09:16 | By crazyhorse

I know what will happen here, but, I can't help myself. Ngapuhi leader David Rankin said "If we believe our histories, then we as Maori are not the indigenous people of New Zealand." The archaeological evidence in some research was a potential challenge to the status of Maori as indigenous, which was why he believed no other Maori was prepared to speak publicly on the issue, Mr Rankin said. Details of much of the country's past was being concealed by academic historians, he said. "I would say it's a conspiracy. They are worried that their own research will be exposed so they have worked hard to ridicule and suppress any Maori history which disagrees with their views. "However, the tide is turning and more people are now seeing that there is a whole history of our country that has been concealed which will have major implications for Treaty settlements.


Fool brigade

Posted on 16-02-2015 10:02 | By YOGI BEAR

yes Robin thanks for the well intended comments and helpful advice there. In fact on this occasion you are right, the reactions of many to date has been entirely inadequate, although I can confess truly that most have no idea of the real agenda intended by the you so a blissfully unaware.


Richard III

Posted on 16-02-2015 17:02 | By YOGI BEAR

Was found in the car park, he was killed in battle, at least they found him, reburied him for good measure, at least they found the evidence. That's real science, history. meanwhile we have Peters myths that are all made up (his words) that we are all meant to believe, what needs to happen here is stage one, "Bury it". Come back then in a few hundred years and then tell us the historically proven myths again Peter or was that Robin? Same same ...


YOGI BEAR, caught out again

Posted on 16-02-2015 17:20 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR is misleading us again when he claims to have visited the Zheng He society in China. Spokesmen for the society have stated publicly that they have no knowledge of Zheng He coming to New Zealand. So any information that YOGI BEAR has collected in China about Zheng He coming to New Zealand he must have misunderstood. Perhaps they spoke to him in Chinese.


crazyhorse, scientists do not manipulate evidence

Posted on 16-02-2015 17:38 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse and YOGI BEAR have lost the plot when they tell us that a whole bunch of scientists are all agreeing together to hide scientific evidence that contradicts the evidence accepted by the majority. Science does not work that way, and there have been enough scientists who did it and got caught to make everybody careful. If DOC is keeping the public away from some archaeological sites it will be because ignorant campaigners are likely to damage them. The reason that most scientists do not agree with crazyhorse is that they can recognise credible evidence when they see it. Crazyhorse is starting from a conclusion that Maori are trying to rip us off, and he is working backwards to try and find evidence to support his conclusion. Scientists start from the evidence and work to a logical conclusion based on all the evidence.


YOGI BEAR repeating the same mistake

Posted on 16-02-2015 17:57 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR seems to be irritated by Janet Wilmshurst. It is Janet who provides the rock solid evidence that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand about 1250 AD and there was nobody settled here before them. YOGI BEAR does not want to believe this but the whole scientific world is against him. Janet has been peer reviewed by the journal of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, the official scientific advisers to the US Government since 1861 (President Abraham Lincoln).


David Rankin

Posted on 16-02-2015 19:01 | By YOGI BEAR

This gentleman has obvious got some integrity head and shoulders above the rest for coming out and stating the truth, this clearly flys in the face of the demanded line for the avid/blind faithful. He of course risks considerable back lash from the Waitangi Troughers who would fear a little risk to the all out onslaught imposed on others without justification. All looks and smells bad and some. Come on robin and Peter, how do you get out of this one, Crazy Steed has got you well and truly buried on this one (like that has never happened before ... NOT). Wait for it folks, here comes a re-twisting o f the treaty again, you know the one that never got signed and never existed on 6/2/1840


archaeological moratorium

Posted on 16-02-2015 19:04 | By YOGI BEAR

On over 100 sites in New Zealand excluding the one already deliberately destroyed. If Maori have nothing to hide and are telling the truth (already know they aren't) then why not let the public see what they really are. We know almost all are sites that verify and show peoples who were not Maori (islander blood lines) of origin.


ROBIN'S MATE SAY'S

Posted on 16-02-2015 22:26 | By YOGI BEAR

That all Maori myths and legends are all made up fairy tails that change ever five minutes or less completely at the wimp of the fairy tale story teller. Peter said "all Maori myths are made up ... they are not true ...". That about sums up the case (all of them) for the claimants. Well done Peter for scuttling Robin and all the claimants from Dey-dotty.


Dame Susan Devoy,

Posted on 17-02-2015 07:49 | By robin bell

issued a challenge to all New Zealanders today. "What kind of country do we want". A country dominated by hate talk,mindless acts of vengeance, and the continual campaign of a few to undermine race relations. The one N.Z foundation is at the forefront of this campaign. Aided and abetted by a few totally un qualified so called authors. I call on Sunlive, (in the name of common decency) to limit the comments to factual and non inflammatory debate. Here's hoping. Robin Bell.


Dame Susan Devoy

Posted on 17-02-2015 17:08 | By YOGI BEAR

That's a bit lame Robin, Susan provoked a spat last year and did nto want to bother to reply, so I guess no one better bother reply to her as she will only look at them if she likes the answer and so can avoid a tantrum. She must have been on the same boat as you and somehow bypassed Syndey on the way past?


Waitangi

Posted on 17-02-2015 17:11 | By YOGI BEAR

Sorry mate Pete "myths busted" Dey, no problem with me, myself like many have got her sorted about what she is all about and some. When science is decided by the pay masters then whatever is then written on that basis is then completely discredited.


PS Peter

Posted on 17-02-2015 17:13 | By YOGI BEAR

next I guess you will want us to believe that Maori myths are real today, false tomorrow and real again the next Dey, that is what Janet is all about. Even David Rankin accepts that your myth about Maori in NZ first is a hoax from those desirous of more and bigger treaty handouts.


R.Paterson is ignoring facts

Posted on 17-02-2015 21:08 | By Peter Dey

R.Paterson seems to think that if he repeats proven misinformation in his original letter that somehow facts are overturned. He claims that there is only one Treaty when in fact Governor Hobson himself authorised the official Treaties that we still have in Maori and English. Because there are two complementary Treaties that are not exact translations of each other we have Treaty Principles that are what you get when you merge two complementary documents. R.Paterson says there is no Treaty partnership but the Government says there is. Since the Government is one of the partners that makes R.Paterson to be out of touch with reality. He then says that part-Maori are not indigenous. Well having Pakeha ancestry does not take away Maori ancestry, so the Maori race still exists, and the UN has granted them a seat on the UN Forum on Indigenous Issues, so they are indigenous.


David Rankin,

Posted on 18-02-2015 10:09 | By robin bell

so called Ngapuhi "leader" is a contributing writer to The Northern Advocate, Maori Bashing, news paper of the far north. He also writes for the one N.Z.foundation,particularly in their defense of Allan Titford,one of N.Zs worst criminals. He also writes for E local who last year invented Monica,the missing link to yogi's tribe. Where "has" Monica gone folks? David Rankin sadly would sell his soul for a dollar. Robin Bell.


YOGI BEAR, Janet is your nemesis

Posted on 18-02-2015 12:25 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR, The USA is the most powerful nation on earth. The National Academy of Sciences of the USA is the official science adviser to the US Government. Janet Wilmshurst's research paper was published by the National Academy of Sciences of the USA. This only happened because she produced genuine radiocarbon research results that showed no human settlement in New Zealand before Maori arrived. She did not write what somebody else told her to write. She organised teams of researchers who went to 1400 sites throughout East Polynesia. She could not possibly have written false research information for all of these sites. She is your nemesis, YOGI BEAR. Nothing you have written dents her credibility. Everything you write about her is fiction from you imagination. Also myths do not change. They carry important cultural stories that are passed on from generation to generation. They are simply not scientific fact.


FROM HERO'S TO ZERO'S

Posted on 18-02-2015 14:01 | By crazyhorse

Have a good look at these guys. Sucking up to the people who agree with them and abusing everyone else Paul Moon was one of their favourites but since he has come out and "rubbished the research and history of the waitangi tribunal he has been dropped like a "hot cake". A home made treaty written by Kawharu, that's fine, holocaust at PARIHAKA, that's fine, a separatist society for part maori that's fine. Looking down the long barrel of an "apartheid" NZ, well, that's fine to if you're a treatyist, a "trougher". You're life is far different to the other 85% of the population, isn't it great what ever happens it's those white fella's fault!.


crazyhorse, Hugh Kawharu only repeated other fluent speakers

Posted on 18-02-2015 16:59 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse is resentful that Hugh Kawharu provided a translation of Maori words in the Treaty that crazyhorse does not like. But Hugh Kawharu was not making up his own individual translations. What he was saying was simply what most other fluent Maori speakers believed. Crazyhorse seems to be completely out of touch with the fact that there exists a community of fluent Maori speakers that he has no contact with.


Perhaps Crazyhorse

Posted on 18-02-2015 20:28 | By robin bell

would like to explain to his ever diminishing fans,just why he left N.Z. in such a hurry. Whilst your at it you may like to explain your "world" famous utterance of a few years ago, "THANK GOD I'M NOT A MAORI" you've spent years indulging your racism, your evil twisted personality disorder. Now its time, for once in your miserable life,be a MAN,throw away your hood and debate these issues on proof rather than rhetoric. Do you have the GUTS. I doubt it. Robin Bell.


crazyhorse, you have got Parihaka wrong

Posted on 19-02-2015 13:25 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse keeps going on about Parihaka because somebody called the destruction of Parihaka in 1881 a holocaust. It is typical of crazyhorse to go on about one small item and ignore the total picture. Individuals using the word holocaust is beside the point. The important point is that at Parihaka Government soldiers were met with passive resistance and destroyed the settlement. The Government never allowed Maori their individual right to justice as provided in the Treaty of Waitangi. The same was true all over Taranaki for a period of 9 years. The Government defrauded Maori of their land under the pretext of ensuring peace when Maori were not fighting anyway unless provoked. Crazyhorse should give us information from the Waitangi Tribunal report on Taranaki and tell us where they got it wrong.


Hugh Kawharu only repeated other fluent speakers

Posted on 19-02-2015 13:55 | By crazyhorse

Thats a new one campers!, so lets get this right. Kawharu provided a translation of Maori words in the Treaty because What he was saying was simply what most other fluent Maori speakers believed, hmmm!. And Quote Dey, Crazyhorse seems to be completely out of touch with the fact that there exists a community of fluent Maori speakers that he has no contact with. So what your saying Peter is back in 1840 there was know one that could speak maori as well as waitangi tribunal member and claimant "honest" Hugh Kawharu and a select few others, that is an interesting concept, I wonder what everyone else reading this thred thinks of that?.


HONESTLY BELL

Posted on 19-02-2015 14:09 | By crazyhorse

I AM NOT ROSS BAKER, that is the truth, also I did not make up wisechief, I'm also not any of the other people you have accused me of being, your paranoid, you have been culturally hypnotised, and also suffer the worst case of "perceived" white quilt I have ever come across, All you do is froth at the mouth and shout accusations, people here will actually make there own minds up whether you like it or not, #### happens suck it up and deal with it.


Democracy becomes twisted,

Posted on 19-02-2015 14:17 | By crazyhorse

In fact meaningless, when the two main parties conspire together against the citizens. This is exactly what National and Labour have done by them both buying into the twin fictions that the Treaty of Waitangi had 'principles”(it didn't) and that it created a 'partnership” between the Crown and Maori (it didn't). The Treaty was a simple document of only three Articles and does not mention 'principles” or 'partnership”. These were dreamt up 150 years later by the sinister combination of radical Maori, appeasing governments and senior judges indulging their own political prejudices instead of obeying their oath to apply the law. Under the Treaty (the real treaty signed at Waitangi and not the reinvented one of the 1990s) the Maoris, through their chiefs, ceded New Zealand to Queen Victoria and in return gained the same rights as British subjects - no more and no less.


Under the real treaty

Posted on 19-02-2015 14:29 | By crazyhorse

Not the one ""retranslated"" by waitangi tribunal member and at the time claimant Hugh KAWHARU' there can be no superior racial rights or special funding (Whanau Ora) or race based ownership/control of public resources (e.g. the foreshore and seabed) for Maoris, part-Maoris or anyone else.The tidal wave of ever growing privileges for part-Maori (code for the very pale-faced tribal elite) could not have proceeded on the basis of the Treaty itself - only by inventing 'principles” and 'partnership”. Remove these two fictions and New Zealand would return to a democracy of equals. But that won't happen so long as National and Labour see their primary role as appeasing the tribal elite rather than governing in the interests of all New Zealanders.


crazyhorse, Hugh Kawharu is fluent back to 1840

Posted on 19-02-2015 15:39 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse and Bruce Moon, who do not speak Maori, do not understand that fluent speakers of Maori are familiar with thousands of Maori words used in documents going back to 1840. Hugh Kawharu in his translation of the Treaty of Waitangi is simply giving us a translation that is similar to that of most other fluent speakers of Maori. This knowledge far outweighs the few quotations that non-speakers of Maori have found to support their view. The Maori version of the Treaty confers only the power of Government to the British. It does not cede sovereignty to the British. That comes in the English version. So it is a mystery that crazyhorse and Bruce Moon do not accept the English version of the Treaty. The Principles of the Treaty are necessary because they merge the meanings from the English and Maori versions made official by Governor Hobson himself.


crazyhorse, modern democracy respects minorities

Posted on 19-02-2015 15:48 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse believes that we should return to a situation where Governments govern in the interests of all New Zealanders. However what we had previously was government in the interests of only the Pakeha 85% majority, not all New Zealanders. So crazyhorse needs to concede that honouring the Treaty of Waitangi and trying to compensate Maori for injustice from Government is a worthwhile path to government in the interests of all New Zealanders. Hopefully more and more New Zealanders understand that that is what is happening. The comment by crazyhorse that democracy is government in the interests of all New Zealanders sums up our situation beautifully.


Then who are you,

Posted on 19-02-2015 16:36 | By robin bell

Crazy-hoss? Surely you don't believe you can gain any credibility by hiding. You accuse Peter and I of being culturally hypnotized simply because we oppose your dishonesty. We both openly use our own names.Your outrageous claims have never been substantiated. Your disclaimer at being Ross Baker can not be verified any more than my claim can be,result stalemate. The old saying comes into play, one that Baker leveled at Claudia Orange, methinks you protest too much.For now I'll stick with my gut instincts Ross,now you PROVE I'm wrong. Robin Bell.


crazyhorse, thousands of Maori documents

Posted on 19-02-2015 17:50 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse does not seem to know that there are thousands of historical documents written in Maori and from the 1800's. Fluent speakers of Maori who read all of these documents can understand the way in which people in 1840 were using Maori words. When Hugh Kawharu provides a translation of the Treaty of Waitangi he is drawing on all of this historical use of the words he is translating. Other fluent speakers have a similar understanding. Picking a quotation out of context from Hongi Hika, and a quotation from one dictionary to argue about the meanings of Maori words by somebody who does not speak Maori is arrogant self delusion.


thousands of Maori documents?

Posted on 19-02-2015 21:44 | By Silent Lambs

Yes Peter, they are all in the category of fabricated 'myth' documents and of course you have already verified what everyone else knows, they are all made up, fake and change each and every day as desired. The 'documents' referred to whatever they are can only be garbage as Maori did not ever have a written language until the missionary's created a written language for Maori in the 1800's.


crazyhorse, thousands of Maori documents

Posted on 19-02-2015 22:11 | By crazyhorse

Quote, Dey, When Hugh Kawharu provides a translation of the Treaty of Waitangi he is drawing on all of this historical use of the words he is translating,[ hmmm, 100 or so years later we finally come up with what the treaty "really " mean't. Once again people will make up their own minds, and you're right there are heaps of historic documents but as "you" have proven what ever need's to be changed to do the job, and also only certain history counts, or is included. right Pete, no only joking I know what the answer will be Lol.


HIDING TO NOTHING

Posted on 19-02-2015 22:17 | By crazyhorse

Hugh Kawharu, changed the meaning of the treaty, the complete meaning of the simple but constantly abused TOW. At the time Hugh Kawharu changed the meaning of the treaty, he was a "CLAIMANT" and he was a member of the "WAITANGI TRIBUNAL" how ###### stupid do you think we are ?.


I accept the award,

Posted on 20-02-2015 08:11 | By robin bell

Crazy-Baker has elevated me to.I understand the award for "The worst example of perceived White Guilt" is at the pinnacle of one N.Z.foundation recognition.I join a very "select" group too numerous to mention in total,but include thousands of present and previous Politicians. I must also mention the many Maori people who have selflessly contributed to my success. In particular the late Sir Hugh Kawharu who worked so hard to educate the ignorant on the meaning of certain Maori words. In particular the word Taonga and its literal meaning,at the time of the treaty. Ironically its meaning is no different to treasure in English. If you are a poor man a dollar is a possession and a treasure. The two words are inextricably linked. Robin Bell.


SHUT UP, OR ELSE!

Posted on 20-02-2015 09:23 | By crazyhorse

After asking legitimate questions about what was going on at their Kohanga reo TangataWhenua.com were served with legal papers claiming defamation from treaty troughing law firm "CHENPALMER" to keep them quiet. One question they asked was,quote, we are concerned with how trustees and directors apply for and approve loans for themselves from TPO and it's staff, currently there are outstanding loans of approx $157,146, TPO directors and management are also provided with non cash "compensation" to the value of $220,890 for the year 2012 and $215,624 in 2011 for items such as cars, fuel cards, cell phones , ipads. Don't believe me, read all about it. http://news.tangatawhenua.com/2013/08/defamation-threat-against-tangatawhenua-com/


YOU ACCEPT THE AWARD

Posted on 20-02-2015 09:55 | By crazyhorse

You picked up the wrong award Robby the award I have given you is the "human skittle" award, doesn't matter how many times you get knocked over you "spring" straight back up, gotto keep you fit if not a bit bruised eh.


All Maori in N.Z

Posted on 20-02-2015 11:35 | By robin bell

and elsewhere are technically CLAIMANTS. Sir Hugh Kawharu no exception. Crazy- Baker besmirches the name of an honest,dignified scholar. So whats new? Crazy-Bakers assertion that ALL Maori are dishonest and incapable of serving on the Waitangi Tribunal is racism of the worst kind.All decent KIWIs should disassociate themselves from this foul evil man here and now. Robin Bell.


crazyhorse, Hugh Kawharu did not change the Treaty

Posted on 20-02-2015 13:13 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse you disagree with the translation of the Treaty by Hugh Kawharu. The translation by Hugh Kawharu does not change the meaning. It is simply another English version of the Maori sentences. There have been many different translations of the Treaty. There have been many different translations of the Christian bible. Hugh Kawharu's Treaty translation is totally justifiable. You do not like it but you cannot speak Maori so your objection is based purely on prejudice not knowledge.


John and crazyhorse, google Maori newspapers

Posted on 20-02-2015 13:27 | By Peter Dey

Newspapers in Maori were published from about 1860. These newspapers contained articles and comments from many fluent Maori speakers writing about current events, such as the Treaty of Waitangi, not myths or garbage, John. Hugh Kawharu simply gave us a better understanding of the Treaty, based on wide reading of Maori writing from the 1800's.


crazyhorse, Pakeha also commit wrongdoing

Posted on 20-02-2015 13:38 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse likes to tell us about Maori wrongdoing, and certainly the Kohanga Reo National Trust seems to still have a lot to explain, but so what. Pakeha commit more crime than Maori because there are more of them. So what. If the Kohanga Reo Trust is doing wrong they will eventually be held to account. That does not prove that we should not have a Kohanga Reo Trust. If people are caught committing offences we simply work to improve our management systems. By going on and on about Maori wrongdoing all that crazyhorse achieves is to show clearly that he is prejudiced and obsessed about it.


crazyhorse, Hugh did not change the Treaty

Posted on 20-02-2015 13:45 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse, Hugh Kawharu did not completely change the meaning of the Treaty of Waitangi. He simply added meaning to some parts of it. He gave us a translation that most fluent Maori speakers are happy with. Crazyhorse, you do not speak Maori. You do not know enough to be arguing about anything written in Maori.


crazyhorse, explain Hugh Kawharu's changes

Posted on 20-02-2015 14:24 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse needs to explain more fully why he thinks Hugh Kawharu completely changed the translation of the Treaty of Waitangi. Hugh Kawharu's translation seems to be similar to many other translations. Crazyhorse's obsession does not make sense. Tell us what Hugh Kawharu did wrong, crazyhorse.


crazyhorse, Hugh Kawharu did not change the Treaty

Posted on 20-02-2015 20:50 | By crazyhorse

Quote Dey,{There have been many different translations of the Christian bible. Hugh Kawharu's Treaty translation is totally justifiable. Once more for the dummies Hughy was a tribunal member and a "claimant" at the time, he was not in a position to "revise" the TOW, and now your comparing it to the "bible" how bloody sad are you going to get?.


crazyhorse, explain Hugh Kawharu's wrong translation

Posted on 21-02-2015 09:11 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse you need to explain why you think Hugh Kawharu completely changed the meaning of the Treaty. Tel us what parts of Hugh Kawharu's translation you think are wrong. Also Hugh Kawharu would not have been a member of the Tribunal hearing his own case. Only some Tribunal members hear any particular case even though there are about 20 Tribunal members at any time.


OFFER AND ACCEPTANCE

Posted on 21-02-2015 10:27 | By crazyhorse

Arguments are flung far and wide from every corner of maoridom that non maori people cannot interpret maori words and in their eyes and the Govt's eyes original 1840 meanings amount to nothing, how ever, the only way "they" could be correct is to disregard that treaty and its translation were in "fact" penned by europeans, The european meaning is paramount, its "contract". The offer and its acceptance happened in 1840 so we are only interested in meanings in 1840 then taonga meant something "tangible" to put a modern word in to replace "tangible" is a lie, manipulation, troughing!.


MISTRANSLATION

Posted on 21-02-2015 10:56 | By crazyhorse

The 1840 translation, meaning of te tino rangitiratanga in the treaty is maori were given full chieftainship of their lands, their settlements their property, standard rights for British subjects, Kawharu's mistranslation is the unqualified exercise of chieftainship,this member of the waitangi tribunal in one foul slash of his pen gives maori """"sovereignty""", everyone else can understand this why not Peter Dey?.


crazyhorse cannot justify his criticism

Posted on 21-02-2015 12:15 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse says that Hugh Kawharu changed the meaning of the Treaty of Waitangi when he translated it. It is clear now that crazyhorse is making a wild accusation against Hugh Kawharu that he cannot justify and which is actually totally false. It seems that crazyhorse can find no fluent speaker of Maori to say that Hugh Kawharu's translation is wrong.


crazyhorse, Williams dictionary contradicts you

Posted on 21-02-2015 13:19 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse there are many ways in which your meaning for taonga can be answered, however what seems a very direct answer is that the Williams Maori dictionary, first printing 1844, gives taonga as a valued possession with the haka as an example. The haka is not tangible. Clearly an 1844 dictionary is giving a meaning current in 1840. Secondly rangatiratanga means chieftainship, and tino in front of a Maori word raises the word to a higher intensity so tino rangatiratanga means a higher intensity of chieftainship so unqualified exercise of chieftainship is not unreasonable. Certainly I am sure that crazyhorse can find no fluent speaker of Maori who will say that Hugh Kawharu is wrong.


crazyhorse, Hugh Kawharu did not use 'sovereignty'

Posted on 21-02-2015 14:07 | By Peter Dey

Hugh Kawharu simply said that clause 2 of te Tiriti gave Maori unqualified exercise of their chieftainship over their lands, their villages and their treasures. The Queen's intention was that the chiefs had complete control according to their customs. Bruce Biggs, professor of Maori at Auckland University, has pointed out that, unlike English which has drawn words for abstract ideas from Greek and Latin, Maori use words with sometimes a concrete meaning and sometimes an abstract meaning. Iwi means tribe and also bone. Hapu means sub-tribe and also pregnancy. Taonga was similarly used with non-material meanings. Clause 1 of te Tiriti gave to the Queen the complete government of New Zealand but not sovereignty. Whatever sovereignty Maori had was not taken away. There was a great deal of Maori written in the 1800's. Crazyhorse is deluding himself over the meanings of tino rangatiratanga and taonga.


A VERY SHREWD

Posted on 21-02-2015 14:25 | By crazyhorse

Was required that would allow part maori to not only to claim they had been duped because of an unequal "partnership", instead they want to claim that "everything" in NZ and I mean everything belonged to them, it took a member of the waitangi tribunal, and claimant to come up with a cunning plan, in the days before the true english draft (littlewood document) of the te tiriti o waitangi, Kawharu would "BACK TRANSLATE" the maori text into english, in his version of the maori language, apparently according to Dey know one could understand the maori language especially its true meaning, remember a lot of maori back then had english as their second language especially the chiefs some who had been to Australia and Britain, to say they did not understand the treaty back then is ridiculous, what we are seeing from dey is what "he' wants to believe.


FILL US ALL IN DEY

Posted on 21-02-2015 14:37 | By crazyhorse

Ngapuhi say they never signed away sovereignty, they were happy to settle all their full and final claims saying they had, show the text in the treaty saying they did not, the text in the treaty not your "translation", your version was to much for even one of your own crowd, Paul Moon was "disgusted" describing it"quoteThis is not a concern about some trivial detail, but over the fundamental history of our country, which the Tribunal has got manifestly wrong." once again Peter I don't care what you and numb nuts think it's what everyone else that reads these threads thinks>


The so-called principles

Posted on 21-02-2015 17:24 | By crazyhorse

Of the treaty, perhaps Dey can tell us "exactly" what these principles are, and, where they came from?.


crazyhorse, so you dispute 3 words

Posted on 21-02-2015 19:20 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse has said that the translation of te Tiriti o Waitangi by Hugh Kawharu completely changed the meaning of the translation from the original. Hugh Kawharu has translated tino rangatiratanga as unqualified exercise of chieftainship. No fluent speaker of Maori has disagreed with this. Hugh Kawharu has translated taonga as treasures. No fluent speaker of Maori has disagreed with this. Bruce Biggs Professor of Maori at Auckland University has found 30 examples in 19th century Maori writing of taonga being used in different contexts both concrete and abstract. Crazyhorse believes that taonga means tangible possession only, but his evidence is almost non-existent. He still needs to say what he believes tino rangatiratanga means. The meanings of these words is a translation from Maori into English. The final English draft of te Tiriti is not a translation from Maori into English.


crazyhorse is making a fundamental mistake

Posted on 21-02-2015 19:38 | By Peter Dey

The final English draft used to prepare the Maori version of the Treaty of Waitangi does not tell us exactly what the Maori version means. Crazyhorse seems to think that it does. In fact to find what the Maori version means we have to translate it back into English as accurately as we can. The final English draft does not do this. Hugh Kawharu did this. No fluent speakers of Maori have said that his translation is wrong. Crazyhorse makes the fundamental mistake of thinking that if you translate the Maori version of the Treaty back into English you will get the final English draft that it came from. Bruce Biggs mentions translating Grapes of Wrath from English into Japanese. When translated back into English it reappeared as Angry Raisins.


TIME IS UP.

Posted on 22-02-2015 10:02 | By SonnyJim

OK commentators, TIME IS UP ! Now go and write a book on your beliefs and "Stand Fast". The treaty was after all just a British attempt to stop all the clap-trap 'utu' like behavior going on while Maori and intruding colonials adjusted the then modern world. As has been widely said, thank goodness it WAS the British that invaded Aotearoa and not one of the other European colonisers still hell bent on the slave trade - what a terrible heritage that would have been for us all to live up to!


crazyhorse should translate tino rangatiratanga

Posted on 22-02-2015 16:23 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse should tell us his translation of tino rangatiratanga. He does not like Hugh Kawharu's translation. Tell us what it should be. The meanings of the words in the Maori version of the Treaty have to be a translation from Maori into English. Using the final English draft for the Maori version is not the same thing.


Iwi Taxation, the TRUTH.

Posted on 22-02-2015 16:24 | By robin bell

Yet again Crazyhose is guilty of deliberate untruth. By his own admission designed to influence the thinking of comment readers. Iwi are charitable Trusts, just like thousands of similar non Maori Charitable Trusts. After distribution of profits to various sanctioned causes thy PAY TAX on net profits. In the year 2013-14 TAX PAID was $409,000. Whilst Crazyhorse (Baker) hides behind a symbolic hood, Iwi balance sheets are there for all to see.. Robin Bell.


crazyhorse taonga means valued possession e.g.haka

Posted on 22-02-2015 16:32 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse has still not produced any credible evidence to challenge the Williams Maori dictionary, first printed in 1844, that taonga means valued possession for example a haka. Bruce Biggs has pointed out that 19th century Maori writing has many examples of taonga referring to non-tangible things. Bruce Biggs is a Professor of Maori at Auckland University.


Iwi are charitable Trusts

Posted on 23-02-2015 10:31 | By YOGI BEAR

Robin says that "Just like thousands of similar non Maori Charitable Trusts". Robin this is complete rubbish, IWI as trusts are to benefit its members at least that is the story given, really they just benefit a few. The IWI pay no tax if approved as a charity, have to have an audit and even if not a charity they pay only 17.5% tax, not the usual 33% that everyone else (non Maori) pay.


Peter say ....

Posted on 23-02-2015 10:34 | By YOGI BEAR

"translate it back into English", that is already done Peter, it is the Littlewood draft, in fact that was the one that was written before 6/2/1840, translated to Maori and signed 6/2/1840. To see the correct translation one merely needs to read the Littlewood draft, simple ah.


crazyhorse, how about full chieftainship

Posted on 23-02-2015 11:21 | By Peter Dey

The official Government translator in 1869, Mr T.E.Young gave the meaning of tino rangatiratanga as full chieftainship when he was asked to provide an official translation. Hugh Kawharu's translation as unqualified exercise of chieftainship seems to mean the same as the full chieftainship given by T.E.Young. The claim by crazyhorse that Hugh Kawharu changed the complete meaning of the Maori version of the Treaty is clearly complete nonsense. Crazyhorse has tried to fool us into thinking that Hugh Kawharu made a major change to the Treaty when he actually did nothing of the sort.


1840 is all that matters

Posted on 23-02-2015 11:37 | By crazyhorse

Maori begged for the treaty, it took the poms around seven years to agree to protect them from the french and themselves!, it was a "european" contract that was offered and "accepted"by maori and, in 1840 clearly ceded Sovereignty. Native Department 1869 official translation from Maori, Article 2 The Queen of England arranges and agrees to give the Chiefs, the Hapus, and all the people of New Zealand, the full chieftainship of their lands, their settlements and all their property. But the Chiefs of the Assembly, and all other Chiefs, gives to the Queen the purchase of those pieces of land which the proprietors may wish, for such payment as may be agreed upon by them and the purchaser who is appointed by the Queen to be her purchaser.


KAWHARU'S version

Posted on 23-02-2015 11:38 | By crazyhorse

Hugh Kawharu 1987 translation from the Maori, Article 2 The Queen of England agrees to protect the chiefs, the subtribes and all the people of New Zealand in the unqualified exercise of their chieftainship over their lands, villages and all their treasures. But the Chiefs of the Assembly, and all other Chiefs, gives to the Queen the purchase of those pieces of land which the proprietors may wish, for such payment as may be agreed upon by them and the purchaser who is appointed by the Queen to be her purchaser.


crazyhorse, tino is a fascinating word

Posted on 23-02-2015 13:07 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse should learn more about 'tino'. It sometimes acts as an adverb and sometimes as an adjective in English. As an adverb it translates as very. So tino roa means very long. But as an adjective it needs two words to translate. so tino hoa means not very friend but very great friend. Tino rangatiratanga means not very chieftainship but very great chieftainship. Tino cannot be translated as a single word. So Hugh Kawharu's translation of tino rangatiratanga as unqualified exercise of chieftainship is a perfectly acceptable version.


crazyhorse is ranting over apartheid

Posted on 23-02-2015 13:32 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse accuses Maori plans as being apartheid. Apartheid was a political system where a white minority had complete political control over a black majority who had no political rights. Apartheid in New Zealand would be the Maori minority having complete political control over the Pakeha majority with no political rights. This possibility is fantasy nonsense. Crazyhorse is completely misusing the word apartheid and stirring up racial bad-feeling in the process.


KAWHARU'S version

Posted on 23-02-2015 21:09 | By YOGI BEAR

Crazy Steed, yeah I think you got that right, shame Peter is still trying to shunt some other fanciful story still. He already admitted that all myths of Maori are made up and change on a daily basis to suit the storyteller.


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