He has chiseled cheekbones, a cheeky smile, brown eyes, tanned skin and a taiaha that never leaves his side.
He starts his days by going to the beach at dawn and greeting his ancestors, and the ‘creator' through karakia (prayer).
Tauranga's Ellis Bryers. Photo by Tracy Hardy.
Ellis Bryers is Maori – he's proud to be. It's his culture, and it's ours.
Whether we, as New Zealanders, choose to adapt to the Maori culture or not, it's part of us in one way or another.
The emotional and powerful haka before an All Blacks' game, greenstone necklaces and singing the national anthem in te reo. We're already using components of Te Ao Maori (the Maori world) to celebrate our culture.
But Ellis wishes to bring more depth to people's understanding of what those Maori components are. What is the meaning behind the haka? Why do we need to have greenstones blessed before we wear them? And how do we pronounce Maori words?
The Nga Puhi descendant has a vision of a nation where Maori cultural practices are understood and utilised daily by both Maori and non-Maori in a way that unifies our nation and builds our identity.
'A nation where ‘kia ora' or ‘tena koe' and a hongi (traditional Maori greeting) between friends becomes commonplace, where everyone knows their personal pepha (Maori introduction), can do a basic whaikorero (formal speech) and what a Marae powhiri (ritual ceremony of encounter) process involves, to name a few,” says Ellis.
He hopes to educate both Maori and non-Maori to adapt and use practices by teaching New Zealanders to take the time and effort to learn about Te Ao Maori, and by Maori supporting them in this journey of learning.
'The rest of the world looks at how we celebrate and utilise Te Ao Maori, and are in awe of us. It's important all New Zealanders know our own history,” says Ellis.
'By knowing about the protocols and processes of Te Ao Maori we will avoid misunderstandings that have hindered the relationship between Maori and non-Maori in the past.”
Not knowing protocols and feeling like they don't have permission to learn is what Ellis believes is holding people back from learning about the culture.
Ellis educates people about Maori cultural practices through his business Mihi Engagement, which includes Maori creation theology, understanding powhiri processes and building pepeha.
'This enables non-Maori business's that have Maori clients to engage with them in a respectful and communicative way,” says Ellis, will be speaking about our cultural identity and how we celebrate that in the future at TEDxTauranga this weekend.
179 comments
I'm a Kiwi.
Posted on 25-07-2015 13:42 | By morepork
Born here, mostly raised here and returned here after many years away. Glad to be back. I embrace the Maori side of our culture and I'm glad the efforts to save Te Reo and Maoritanga are proving successful. I'm very glad Ellis is doing what he feels he should, and it is right and proper that ALL ethnicities living here should maintain their own culture, as well as being New Zealanders. We have a chance here to show the world that it IS possible for diverse peoples to live together successfully. The keys are respect, understanding, and equality for all. Like Ellis, I too have a culture; my blood is from Scots, Vikings, French and English. (I don't think it matters; I'm here... but I would like to see my cultural heritage preserved, just as Ellis does.) Maori are important NZers, but so are everybody else. The mix is uniqu
Interesting isn't it
Posted on 25-07-2015 18:37 | By How about this view!
Many, Many commentators (Myself included) fearful of passing comment on this item, for fear of being labeled racist. One question though, AM I RACIST, if I don't give a hoot about what someone else believes in (Race, Creed or colour) and treat them and respond towards them solely based on the way in which they present themselves and act towards me and the environment that I am in? I feel perfectly at ease doing my job, as I ignore everything other than providing a service to a customer. We are all heading towards "The global Village" and only need look overseas to see the conflict that is encountered when "CULTURE" and "BELIEFS" are imposed upon others.
Very eloquently put morepork...
Posted on 25-07-2015 18:40 | By groutby
I also am proud to call myself a Kiwi, similar descent to yours,..and have (I believe) an appropriate understanding of Maori culture...I think it is important to understand, those from around the world who are equally proud to call New Zealand home and live within NZ Laws,and we must all be able to celebrate our individual cultures without fear or favour, this is what will make out country desirable beyond belief in the future. Ka pai to Ellis with his endeavours to celebrate his culture, as we all should.
Instead of teaching non-Maori...
Posted on 25-07-2015 21:19 | By Tgaboy
It would be nice if Maori were interested in their own culture. I am aware that historically children were considered taonga/treasure and treated as such. But nowadays the media and statistics reflect a change that suggests this is no longer the case. Mr Bryers, there is a challenge for you. It won't gain you money but will bring more mana than you could hope for.
This prancing around is culture ?
Posted on 25-07-2015 21:33 | By ROCCO
I think not and I am sick of having this stuff rammed down my throat as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Part Maori
Posted on 25-07-2015 22:10 | By YOGI BEAR
That is really it, but besides that NZ is multicultural, there should be a diverse awareness of the cultures that are in NZ, not a single focus mentality.
I am not a
Posted on 26-07-2015 09:14 | By Jitter
But I do have my own culture which I do not try to force on anyone else. Good on Ellis for endeavouring to teach people "Maori" culture. Whether we adapt to the "Maori" culture or not, it is part of our overall culture as NZers as is English, Pacifica, Asian, Indian, Welsh, Scottish,Irish etc. You cannot just pick one and say THAT is the only one. I see it also states "the taiaha never leaves his side". In many situations wouldn't this be considered an offensive weapon ? If not what happens if I have a weapon of my culture constantly by my side eg spear, pike, bow and arrow, crossbow? I am sure Messrs Dey and Bell will have scathing comments to make.
You all miss the point,
Posted on 26-07-2015 11:38 | By robin bell
Ellis is preserving his culture and offering understanding.Rocco believes it is being rammed down his throat, simple remedy rocco,take your throat elsewhere,it's offensive.Morepork and groutby offer a reasonable overview but miss the fundamental difference between Treaty partners and "other" ethnicities. Maintaining a culture, any culture is important but maintaining a sacred compact (the treaty) outweighs all else. You are correct Morepork & groutby N.Z.can show the world a thing or two, but not until we find the strength to acknowledge the true and just place of the Maori people. Sorry if I disappoint you jitter but your insults are unacceptable. Robin Bell.
caution
Posted on 26-07-2015 12:54 | By Captain Sensible
Hopefully he will be extremely cautious of what part of maori culture he chooses to follow and what parts he will not choose. Pre- european maoris main source of protein was the moa and ...... !!!
@Rocco
Posted on 26-07-2015 13:01 | By morepork
Yes, this "prancing around" is part of a culture. Your reaction shows a lack of respect or understanding; in our society you are allowed to have an opinion and you don't HAVE to be respectful or understanding, but life is better for all of us if we DO try to understand cultural differences. If you actually do some homework you will come to understand the significance of the "prancing around" and with understanding comes tolerance. You may never "like" it, but you will be better equipped to live with it. As long as you are on these shores, it won't be going away. (Some of us actually embrace and enjoy it, but everyone is different...).
@jitter
Posted on 26-07-2015 13:14 | By morepork
You have expressed something which is on the minds of many: "How come Maori can do things (under the umbrella of "culture") which I can't do?" If you walk down the Strand with a sword or crossbow you will probably be arrested... This again comes under the heading of "understanding". Ellis and his taiaha do not pose a threat to the general public; if he were to threaten or actually use it, he would be subject to the same laws as the rest of us. The only difference is the "spiritual" attachment he has to the weapon as a symbol. Many of us wear amulets and tokens that have sentimental meaning for us; this is like that, but stronger. Scots (sgian-dubh) and Sikhs (kirpan) may carry concealed daggers as part of their culture, but most of us don't feel threatened by it. Respect, Understanding, Equality.
@groutby
Posted on 26-07-2015 13:18 | By morepork
Thank you for the acknowledgement. I endorse your post 100%.
An opportunity.
Posted on 26-07-2015 13:43 | By morepork
Racism often springs from fear or ignorance of the differences between cultures. Differences are NOT a bad thing; they extend our vision and help us become wiser as we learn to understand. You don't have to LIKE the differences; but, if our society is to realize its full potential, you do need to understand them. Because your neighbour has different beliefs from you, doesn't mean you can't be friends. There are enough shared threads in "being Human" for us to find similarities as well as differences. New Zealand has a chance that may never have happened in the world before: A young nation, NOT stuck in the real or imagined dark ages of history, able to approach the future with a model for society that can be rolled out throughout the world. ALL citizens valued, ALL cultures contributing. A unique society, with respect, understanding, and equality for all.
Not miss the point
Posted on 26-07-2015 14:30 | By YOGI BEAR
It is his culture, for him and his unfortunate offspring, no one else need ever know about this and anything related, end of story.
Captain Sensible
Posted on 26-07-2015 14:32 | By YOGI BEAR
Got that right, no Moa's left for centuries either, that is all part of the environmental guardian thing is it?
morepork
Posted on 26-07-2015 14:41 | By YOGI BEAR
How can you embrace it? In fact why would you want to? Most I know couldn't give a ..., about the prancing around thing, it was never part of part Maori culture, the prancing as you call it (overstated) was created by Europeans for tourist a bit over a century ago.
Heading of
Posted on 26-07-2015 14:44 | By YOGI BEAR
Nothing is required, except that all the antics, prancing and tourist type activities are all created post 1840, by Europeans and all then hijacked by money hungry "cultural" types looking for something to change from away slavery and cannibalism.
Whose paying for this?
Posted on 26-07-2015 14:46 | By YOGI BEAR
Bet it is another Government troughers enterprise that costs the taxpayers a million to promote PC culture somehow?
Offensive weapon
Posted on 26-07-2015 14:48 | By YOGI BEAR
Surely it si dangerous, like others note why cant they wander about with a sword, it was their culture, why not now? Perhaps it is a mental capacity thing, some cultures realise it is offensive, and some are clueless.
Differences are a good thing?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:08 | By YOGI BEAR
As that means it is then easy to see the wood from the charf. Here and of course with all respect, you can have your culture, you can do what you like to what is yours, make yourself happy had of course have fun. But don't expect me to pay tax to pay you to do it, don't expect to have airtime to peddle your cause. If you are going to peddle the idea that you have a "culture" then please do try and be original and authentic. To date (a couple of centuries) we have been waiting a long time to see anything authentic.
Part Maori need culture?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:11 | By YOGI BEAR
If one is aware, alert and of a mental capacity to "see" how it is, travelling the world as I have you see what "culture" is elsewhere. Examples are everywhere else, Egypt, China, Cambodia and the Mayan empires for a start. There is just no comparison whatsoever. The gap is vast and remains so.
Stuck in the dark ages of history?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:15 | By YOGI BEAR
We would dearly love part Maori to have achieved that, that indeed is the problem that part Maori have aspirations yet they don't stack up to what actually has happened in the world. The gap back to where part Maori stand is thousands of yeas behind the rest of the world, the culture as a result then becomes a novelty thing so not something to be respected in the long term and so revered. The fact is part Maori "culture" in the time line of things sits maybe 10-12,000 years behind the rest of the world. that feature is the only thing worthy of keeping in mind here.
equality for all?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:18 | By YOGI BEAR
Morepork, do you mean "One law for all"? Because right now that is not the case there is preference and separatism for the minority. That is not a model for the future at all and like South Africa is doomed to failure. get the picture?
HOW DOES THIS STUFF GET A LIFE
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:20 | By kellbell
It is basically manufactured contrived fabricated and manipulated and yes someone is one way or another paying for this PC hoohaa.Yes most people are well and truly over the nose rubbings hakas and blessings and would not be sorry to see the artz end of it all.
@groutby
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:21 | By YOGI BEAR
Like some of it, yes same laws apply to all, but right now and the intends future of some is separatism, that means the laws are not applied equally to all. Then you have created difference, preferences and so unrest will surely follow. It may start and it has, but it will not last and the end historically in these situations can only end badly. The reason is simple, greed is the motive for it all.
CORRECTION
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:30 | By kellbell
Ellis Bryers is only part maori plus he is therefore also something else and it is reasonable to ask what are the relative percentages.
Yeasty look about it?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:37 | By YOGI BEAR
Kellbell do you mean mould of fungus? Maybe both?
Where for ougt thou RObin?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:41 | By YOGI BEAR
How you are having a lovely dey and enjoying the il-gotten spoils already, guess you missed this lot below and have as usual a lot catching up to do. Folks out there, look for the 'red necked racist' label to be played in a place near you. Robin wont have any other answer to all below and never has any evidence otherwise 23-0
NZers know our own history?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:44 | By YOGI BEAR
Not sure what planet that is from? NZ history started well before part Maori were in NZ, it was in fact thousands of years before General Zheng (he had seven ships, not canoes) he dropped off a few islanders here by accident as they were useless. When he dumped them off there were already peoples here in NZ and had been so for thousands of years.
Zoe Hunter,what have you done ?
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:53 | By robin bell
a great article on a very interesting subject,hijacked by Yogi Bear with his usual racist rants.Still pushing his Mylaw4all rubbish, ably backed up by the usual gaggle of racist and "casual racist" team.Reasoned contributions drowned by his "make it up as you go" tactic,designed to drown out reason.I hope Morepork, that you can overcome the disgust you must feel, and continue with the respect you obviously have for our Maori partners. Robin Bell.
WORKING THE ORACLE
Posted on 26-07-2015 15:57 | By CONDOR
What language what dictionary what cultural performances what prayers you have got the missionaries at the outset and more recently ingenious (Not indigenous)fabricators to bless for that hoodwinkery.
Ellis Bryers:
Posted on 26-07-2015 16:50 | By YOGI BEAR
There are none with anywhere near 50%, so what else is in his veins? you know that other say 80%?
It doesn't matter
Posted on 26-07-2015 17:17 | By How about this view!
What happened, IF it happened or when it happened. Here, we have a man who wants to cash-in on the grovelling kowtowing of our HARD WORKING business communities (Our current Councils already have a three day course, that all sub-contractors are also required to attend, that is solely Maori culture based). The fear of politically correct LABELING in New Zealand is appalling. As a nation we "INVEST" Billions of dollars into Maori development and attempting to raise Maori health and well-being (Often to the detriment of other users of the same services - Think health and Education) Protecting Maori sensitivities, rather than enhancing our nation, is dragging it down. These nonsense training operators should be condemned for suggesting that understanding Cultural practices will in any way enhance productivity or decision making in an international business environment.
Insults, What Insults?
Posted on 26-07-2015 19:48 | By Jitter
I am now totally confused having gone over my comments again I cannot understand what are insults. I think I will start up an organisation to teach people in NZ my main culture, it's language and history. Welsh. I would carry a leak around with me all the time. If it's good for one culture in NZ it's good enough for all the rest. Seriously I say go for it Ellis. However we should also be concentrating on teaching our kids how to speak, write and read English for when they leave school to go into work or on to further studies.Many of them struggle when they leave school. You only have to see the poor standard of job applications coming in for teenagers.
@ How about this view
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:01 | By YOGI BEAR
Actually the effect is harmful to productivity and so on. There certainly is no benefit unless you on the take.
@ robin bell
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:02 | By YOGI BEAR
You are so predictable, the racist card again.
Congrats Zoe
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:06 | By YOGI BEAR
Nice article, about time some of this got aired in public and the censorship stopped for PC reasons.
Respect for part Maori partners
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:11 | By YOGI BEAR
Yes Robin hat is it, except when they start troughing and feasting at everyone's else's cost and harm. Just as long as thee is a little fairness for all then no issue, let me know when you get there.
I'll say it
Posted on 26-07-2015 22:53 | By Captain Sensible
Maori culture was far inferior to european culture before 1840. It was inferior to most other cultures bar stoneage cultures where it was on a par. Why do maori celebrate that?
Robin says
Posted on 27-07-2015 02:50 | By Kenworthlogger
Maintaining a culture any culure is important but to maintain a treaty is more important. Well the treaty was about giving Maori the SAME rights not more imprtant ones. Seems its been lost in translation Robin.
Wisechief
Posted on 27-07-2015 07:27 | By Wise Chief
Hairy Bear, YOU mighty Anglophilian Barbarian Hunsrick Mongrel cave dweller of note. This was state of development at time of JESUS disciple Bartholomew coming to EU to convert ur ancestors into civilised human beings. Thus may one ask did YOU & YOUR UK/Eurocentric CULTURAL GIANTS bring any land with YOU to even the trade imbalance we have today with Your thieving crowd now owning some 97% of all land while the Brown descendants of the discoverers have so little. Here You rail against Maori as having little culture when in fact it is You UK European lot that have nothing but a mishmash of pagan belief systems which have now become mainstream, their real origins lost to the mists of time. The point is Hairy Bear, Your constant racism and racist rants have lost their power to agreave or insult. New stuff please, or go away & moult.
About the Enemy Within
Posted on 27-07-2015 09:00 | By kellbell
......Apologists Aggrievers a.k.a Fith Columnists pedal their wares ad nauseum promoting invasive agendas usually fueled by self interest and special treatment race based policies. Kiwis you are losing your country and its unique social fabric to the subversives.Beware apathy and the she'll be right attitude are not options- speak out have your say don't become the irrelevant majority."He iwi tahi tatou" is the catchphrase.
Kenworthlogger,
Posted on 27-07-2015 09:11 | By robin bell
The TREATY was about a lot more than that, It is simple, concise,and was clearly (from your point of view) a major cock-up.It made Maori partners with protection from you and your latter day revisionists. Have a good day kenny. Robin Bell.
Insults jitter,
Posted on 27-07-2015 09:52 | By robin bell
a little help for you. When you enclose the word Maori in parenthesis thus"Maori" it indicates a certain need to enclose or separate, not the worst insult but an insult non the less. Robin Bell.
Ding Dong Bell Credo
Posted on 27-07-2015 10:09 | By ROCCO
.......Abandoning the search for truth and now looking for a good fantasy.
Kia Kaha Ellis Bryers
Posted on 27-07-2015 10:13 | By Colleen Spiro
My heart is heavy....We have just had the week of Te Reo and this man proudly stands up to say he is proud to be Maori and I read these SHAMEFUL comments....Absolutely bloody disgraceful.
@ kiaora2u
Posted on 27-07-2015 10:39 | By YOGI BEAR
I don't think so, this venting would appear to be a result of separatism and double standards and quite rightly so
Kenworthlogger
Posted on 27-07-2015 10:40 | By YOGI BEAR
Lost in translation, that is the truth of it, the translation has been well and truly messed with and now the treaty has well and truly broke and a lot.
Kellbell,
Posted on 27-07-2015 11:33 | By robin bell
your starting to sound like the old fascist propagandists. "Fifth column" indeed,I just luv that,I don't hide from anyone,I use my given names,give me a call anytime and I'll educate you on what "fifth column" really means. Warning, you won't like it, kellbell indeed. Robin Bell.
imagine
Posted on 27-07-2015 11:33 | By Captain Sensible
Imagine the calls of racism if that picture was of a european with the title'Joe Bloggs; I am European'and then paragraphs of how proud he was to be european. It must be said that maori culture is not equal to european culture. Not even close. Not all cultures are equal, despite all the recent make-it-up-as-you-go reinvented 'culture' unheard of in 1840.
Immature Comments
Posted on 27-07-2015 11:51 | By Rate1
How immature some commentators have been. If you disagree with NZ's culture (ie. Maori) - then go over to Syria or Iraq and moan about their nationalities..I'm sure ISIS will take you in (might lose your head though). We MUST not lose our cultural heritage..did anyone see the Kapiti Coast College students YouTube speech? Watch that and learn.
Make it up as go
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:06 | By YOGI BEAR
@ Captain Sensible, that is right for sure. You say "unheard of in 1840" well that isn't right, much heard now has only been created in the 1980-1990's at best. All fabricated and distributed to the faithful ex Wellington's creative department, the Waitangi Tribunal is head of the pack.
Mature Comments
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:08 | By YOGI BEAR
Actually you raise the important issue here, you assume your party Maori and ex Islander culture is "Ours". In fact if you want it, it is yours, keep it and go do what you want where ever. I agree you should go take a look at Syria and the like, the chances of you coming back however are slim.
Culture is not a competition cap'n.
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:19 | By robin bell
It is a constantly evolving thing.It may well be true that Ellis represents a culture that may not have existed in 1840, so what??? You don't represent European culture,and most certainly the other negative commentators don't. Or am I wrong are your comments and those of Yogi bear, condor, wocco,kellbell etc, an example of how wonderfully superior to Maori we truly are??? Not sure, let me know cap'n. Robin Bell.
@ robin bell
Posted on 27-07-2015 13:20 | By Captain Sensible
Yes, using 1840 as a benchmark, european culture definitely was light years superior to maori culture. There is no question whatsoever. But I have to wonder about the sanity of someone who keeps his spear forever at his side in 2015. Honestly that is just bizzare.
@ robin bell
Posted on 27-07-2015 13:27 | By Captain Sensible
Why do you keep claiming the treaty was a 'partnership'??? It was only in the mid 1970's when all the signatories were dead, that a few simple do-gooders changed the meaning (which is highly illegal), to claim it meant partnership when that word is nowehere to be found in the original.
YOGI
Posted on 27-07-2015 13:35 | By Rate1
Get a life you dim wit! Your tickets booked to Syria - DON'T COME BACK. They just love bears!
Captain not so,
Posted on 27-07-2015 15:32 | By robin bell
Yes let's take 1840 as a "benchmark" Slavery in the mills of Lancashire. Google "Blowing the Gun" as practiced in India, while your at it cap'n check out the genocide we committed in India and Africa.Your entitled to celebrate our achievements as do I, but you ignore the negative at your peril. Robin Bell.
Completely out of context cap'n
Posted on 27-07-2015 15:55 | By robin bell
the story of your life.Ellis keeps his Taiaha constantly at his side during his Karakia.You must read things more carefully cap'n.Perhaps then you would be less confused. When a Treaty, contract, compact is signed by two or more parties it creates a PARTNERSHIP. No matter how you squirm cap'n you and your friends can not change that. Ask all those friends who supported the removal of the Pohutakawa recently. Robin Bell.
Ka pai
Posted on 27-07-2015 16:02 | By Sam Green
Ka pai to mahi, e hoa.
Captain is so
Posted on 27-07-2015 16:47 | By YOGI BEAR
Yes, the UK did have slavery, I guess they came here to NZ and saw where that was going to end up, slavery and cannibalism so backed up and got rid of it. Thanks for pointing that out.
PARTNERSHIP creation?
Posted on 27-07-2015 16:50 | By YOGI BEAR
That only happened after 1975, then the talents of creativity appeared and whamo there is a partnership that never existed before. Perhaps you should look at e "real NZ history" where part Maori came to the settlors seeks salvation form their own kind who were slaughtering outright and unabated across NZ. The treaty was nothing more than an attempt by the majority of part Maori to seek protection and so survive the slaughter.
Overit
Posted on 27-07-2015 18:26 | By overit
Ellis is providing a service for those who are interested, for those who are not, they should but out.
@Yogi Bear
Posted on 27-07-2015 18:30 | By morepork
Seeing the number and ferocity of the posts you have made, shows you feel pretty strongly about this subject. Given that, I would have thought you'd do more homework and try for a more positive position. You can whinge all you like, and you can bleat about your taxes and "inequality", but the bottom line is :"Maori are not going anywhere". If you can't learn to deal with differences and NOT get incensed by them, you are probably not going to enjoy your time in NZ very much. Yes, I do believe in one Law for all, and I agree with you that sometimes that gets subverted. But that's no reason to shoot the messenger. Flaws in the Law can be addressed (and they should be), but a basis of understanding and respect can assist that process. Hostility and carping won't make it better.
@Robin Bell
Posted on 27-07-2015 18:40 | By morepork
No Robin, I don't feel disgust at ANYONE who is expressing an opinion. If you see offence and insult everywhere, you will probably end up offended and insulted. Not me. I try to understand WHY people feel the way they do and that helps me to deal with life. I am saddened by some of the comments here, but it just shows we have a lot more work to do. Respect has to be earned; it doesn't come from bullying and dominating. Understanding comes after thought and reflection, not by bleating whining and carping. EVERYONE has a right to an opinion, whether I personally like it or not, and it is when the discussion STOPS that we need to worry. As long as there is dialogue, there is a chance (even if small) that minds could be changed. Respect, understanding, and Equality.
Superior?
Posted on 27-07-2015 18:48 | By morepork
How can you consider one culture "superior" to another? Technology doesn't make it so; manners and customs don't make it so. EVERY culture on Earth has SOME value or it wouldn't exist. If you evaluate every culture based on criteria established in YOUR culture, you will miss things that do not exist in your culture. Instead of "judging", accept that there may be more than ONE successful way for Human Beings to live together and see what you can learn.
@kiaora2u
Posted on 27-07-2015 18:54 | By morepork
Yes, it is "bloody disgraceful". But take heart from the fact that it is a small fringe (and there are fanatics on both sides of the fence). When the landslide starts, the pebbles won't get to vote. I still see a bright future for our country; the rising generation are wiser than some here are proving to be.
Nonsense
Posted on 27-07-2015 20:04 | By Sam Green
I see captain nonsense is spewing his racist hatred again. Stop it old man! You are an embarrassment. Read the article and give credit where it is due and stop your bloody twaddle.
@ Robin Bell
Posted on 27-07-2015 22:17 | By Captain Sensible
"...... a taiaha that never leaves his side." Maybe you should read it again! And as for your ideas of partnership....sorry but you are wrong. In 1840 it was not a partnership .....if it was, it would state such. Also, partnership in 1840 was not as liberally interpreted then as it may be now. FYI in 1840 the benchmark used, europe had democracy, and practices such as canibalism, rape, murder, and slavery were certainly not practiced like in pre european NZ where it was the accepted practice. I do however agree with Mr Bryers in that "It's important all New Zealanders know our own history,
1975 or therabouts
Posted on 28-07-2015 09:05 | By robin bell
when justice and proper recognition of the Treaty finally penetrated the wall of indifference and cynical denial of the majority Partner.When race relations finally took a turn for the betterment of the minority Partner.When those who couldn't stomach the changes started their ongoing campaign to undermine,destroy and insult. How's it going 40 yrs down your self destructive path guys? where is the One N.Z.party? where is the One N.Z.Foundation? Where is The 1law4all party? Where is Tauranga's leading "political" activist? still trying to hide behind YOGI BEAR, that's where. Robin Bell.
To Robin Bell
Posted on 28-07-2015 14:36 | By Jitter
I would also put my own cultural name claims in " " as I do with the word "Maori". Why ? Because I am probably far less "Welsh" or "French" than I am English. Most "Maori" today are far less Maori than they are European, Pacifica, Asian or any other race or culture. You cannot call yourself truly Maori when your blood is less than 50% of that race no matter what the politicians, lawyers or what you would like to be called. I am well over 50% English with some Welsh and French blood, so am English.
morepork,
Posted on 28-07-2015 16:48 | By robin bell
I certainly do not see insult everywhere. perhaps you misread my passion.The people I oppose (YOGI BEAR, CAP'N NOT SO ETC) believe they carry the right to insult the people I love, they believe they have the right to recreate a past where the people I love had absolutely no rights or power in the land they once owned. I may not be the "diplomat" you aspire to be but my determination is second to none. You are correct a younger generation may see this nonsense for what it is,I certainly hope so. Meanwhile you do "IT" your way,I'll do it mine. Robin Bell.
Interesting
Posted on 28-07-2015 18:58 | By astex
I have been watching these posts with interest and am beginning to understand why the Maori is such a confused race. My nephews are a mix of European and Maori and are proud of both these cultures that made them the people that they are. I talk to many people that state they are English/South African or French/Belgian and even Iranian/Iraqi. They are all proud of all sides of their personal culture. By claiming to be Maori and ignoring the rest of the mix you do not know exactly who you are or where you come from. It would be like a breath of fresh air to hear someone proudly state that they are Maori AND something else. That person would have a clear idea of where they came from and be better off because of that. I suggest that the crime figures would also drastically change in theMaori'sfavour.
@ iknow
Posted on 28-07-2015 21:16 | By YOGI BEAR
You make some good points, but the missing link is that by adding the label of "part-Maori" and claiming to be part of any IWI, then somehow means you are 100% Part Maori and nothing else. There is only one reason for that. There is no problem with part Maori heritage and culture, the issue is the misnomer of it all. The denial of as you note the majority of the blood lines being other than part Maori.
Captain Sensible misunderstands partnership
Posted on 28-07-2015 21:22 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible keeps repeating the same claim that the word 'partnership' does not appear in the Treaty of Waitangi. He is absolutely correct, and nobody has ever denied this. What Captain Sensible has to accept is that the Maori community and successive Governments want to have a Government/Maori partnership because they believe that that is the best way forward for New Zealand society. There is no general opposition to this. 1law4all, One New Zealand, John Ansell and Colourblind New Zealand, and Twisting the Treaty have all attempted unsuccessfully to oppose Maori/Government partnership. The Treaty does not talk of partnership but New Zealanders are comfortable with it. It is where we want to go.
Captain Sensible modern historians are not airy fairy
Posted on 28-07-2015 21:30 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible does not accept what modern historians tell us but they have, in fact, much greater knowledge of all the historical records available to us, so that what they tell us is now much more likely to be accurate. For example the radiocarbon knowledge that Maori arrived in New Zealand about 1250AD, and that there were no humans here before them, has only been fully available for about the last five years. There are many historical documents in Maori that Pakeha historians have never been able to read, that Maori scholars are now revealing to us.
Large numbers of positive comments are pleasing
Posted on 28-07-2015 21:36 | By Peter Dey
It is pleasing to read the large number of positive comments in this column. Because YOGI BEAR does not reveal his true identity he is able to write a great deal of nonsense that he cannot justify and not be embarrassed about. However in the process he provides the opportunity for everybody to realise that his claims have no real substance, so the positive result is very good.
1975 or there about's
Posted on 29-07-2015 08:01 | By crazyhorse
Ah yes I can see Bells apologistic eyes light up with "gluttonous' glee 1975 the year honest Dougy Palmer " invented" the treaty principles, and the feasting started, I see your going on about partnership again, its naughty to lie Robin when you know full well there is nothing in the tow about partnership,
Partnership,
Posted on 29-07-2015 08:48 | By robin bell
> Joint concerns,interests or ownership.I suggest you read the Treaty.It does not have to contain the "word" it creates it, just as a marriage contract does. "It takes a long time to achieve the obvious.There are no POLICIES that are better than the legal binding document, the covenant" YOGI BEAR 26-5-2015. Pohutakawa tree removal Ferguson Park. How true CAP'N, but not it seems for Maori. Robin Bell.
jitters
Posted on 29-07-2015 09:06 | By robin bell
so you are English well bully for you.English is not a race, it's a nationality. Blood Quotient is not used to measure the level of Maori a person is,it is a combination of direct lineage, upbringing, cultural exposure,pride etc. etc. I did the exercise, traced my wifes lineage on both sides, just for you "jitter" guess what "old boy" NO European intrusion for over 100 yrs,till I came along. Your Blood Quotient has no validity whatsoever. Robin Bell.
Interesting
Posted on 29-07-2015 10:07 | By YOGI BEAR
Yes, it is an interesting scenario, the focus is singular as there is money involved. The view of the world then is seriously tainted. Worst of all is that history is currently being deleted and re-written to suit the desired belief of history and to align it to what has happened in the Waitangi Tribunal. One supports the other to a desired result. Sadly that manipulation means that much from around 1840, the treaty meaning and most since has been altered. It is a sad story and riddled with greedy and control ideals for a minority alone, the vast majority will never see a penny.
Jitter, Maori ancestry makes somebody by law Maori
Posted on 29-07-2015 10:12 | By Peter Dey
Jitter wants to deny Maori the right to call themselves Maori if they have less than 50% Maori ancestry. Fortunately politicians who are wiser that Jitter have recognised that if somebody speaks the Maori language, lives in a Maori community, and spends their time involved in Maori culture that they are Maori regardless of their percentage of Maori ancestry. People who identify as Maori and have Maori ancestry in New Zealand, by law, are legally Maori not part-Maori. Part-Maori is a non-legal term used by malicious people as an insult. Fortunately our leaders have removed the term part-Maori from the law because of its misuse purely as an insult. Those who use the term part-Maori are being deliberately insulting.
Solution
Posted on 29-07-2015 13:33 | By Feruno
I have been through all the comments and my heart is heavy . All these racial undertones and people being insulted and sworn at is so sad . Why do we, ALL Citizens of our beloved New Zealand, at the same time we get our new flag , EVERY Citizen become Maori . Then we are all ONE People , and as ONE , submit a massive Treaty settlement claim against the Crown for the suffering the Treaty has caused ALL New Zealanders for 160 years . Anyone who does not want to become Maori must depart from our beautiful Country, and we can live in harmony in our Paradise .The final settlement should be divided equally amongst all Citizens.Peace
YOGI BEAR, historians do not falsify history
Posted on 29-07-2015 14:30 | By Peter Dey
When historians write new history accounts they do it because they have read historical records not previously available, or they find that previous historians have mislead us. The stories by Percy Smith, about the origins of Maori in New Zealand, we now know to have been put together by Percy Smith from a number of different sources but presented as one. History has been corrected not falsified. Radiocarbon dating now tells us exactly when Maori first arrived here. That is history updated not falsified. The task of the Waitangi Tribunal is to make realistic compensation for injustice against Maori. They have been accused of rewriting history but their priority has been to establish where clear injustice has occurred. Their decisions do not mean that they have decided what is correct history. They have simply made the most fair decision that they could, based on evidence presented.
YOGI BEAR, the meaning of the Treaty has not changed
Posted on 29-07-2015 14:50 | By Peter Dey
We know that the English and Maori versions of the Treaty of Waitangi are not exact translations of each other. That is not disputed. YOGI BEAR and others want to make the Maori version the only true version, possibly because only the English version guarantees Maori the possession of their forests and fisheries. However Governor Hobson, who established the Treaty, sent both the English and Maori versions officially to his superiors, so he decided that we would have two versions that were not exact translations. What he did can now not be undone. We now have the Principles of the Treaty because that is a way of merging the meanings from the two versions of the Treaty, Maori and English. Some people, who do not speak Maori, argue about the meanings of 'taonga' and 'tino rangatiratanga' but when they disagree with fluent Maori speakers they are just being ridiculous.
Laughable Peter
Posted on 29-07-2015 19:14 | By Kenworthlogger
Peter says you have to speak Maori to have an opinion on what taonga and tino rangatiratonga mean. Not true. He is just stacking the odds. He also says if somebody speaks the Maori language, lives in a Maori community, and spends their time involved in Maori culture that they are Maori. So you can be Chinese then do all the above and say you are Maori. He also says if you call Maori part Maori you are being insulting. His opinion only! One is alowed to express their opinion and describe part Maori as part Maori. If im described as part English its not an insult. Why is that? Seems very raceist Peter.
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 30-07-2015 01:28 | By Captain Sensible
You seem to think that because something is 'legal' ( even though the meaning of the treaty was fraudulently changed after all signatories had died!) it is then ok for 85% of kiwis to be regarded as second class citizens. Need I remind you that the racist laws in South Africa and America were also legal but did that make it ok? If you are for special race based treatment, you don't need me to tell you what that makes you.
Laughable Kenny,
Posted on 30-07-2015 08:49 | By robin bell
An opinion is just that, an opinion.It falls short of absolute conviction,certainty or positive knowledge. You are not the only one who makes that mistake. You are entitled to your opinions, but if they lack credibility as they often do surely they are worthless in this context. Robin Bell.
SAME AS SAYING EARTH IS FLAT WHEN WE ALL KNOW IT IS ROUND
Posted on 30-07-2015 10:48 | By CONDOR
@kenworthlogger >Don't be fazed by the apologist clowns. The definition of who was maori was changed by the Third LABOUR GOVERNMENT politicians in an effort to perpetuate the race based nonsense surrounding maori & primarily to reinvent and reincarnate the criteria on who could claim to be and qualify as maori.The Maori Affairs Amendment Act1974 politically redefined maori as "a person of the maori race of New Zealand and including any descendants of such a maori" thereby broadening the definition of who was a maori.The rationale recorded that the restriction in the legal application of the term maori to persons with more than a fixed degree of maori blood (50%)in the Maori Affairs Act 1953 should be relaxed.In other words it was rapidly getting to the stage where no one could claim to be a maori.Labour quickly followed this up with Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975 establishing biased WTF Tribuna
Kenworthlogger, easily explainable and not laughable
Posted on 30-07-2015 11:06 | By Peter Dey
Kenworthlogger, People who do not speak Maori can certainly have an opinion on the meanings of taonga and tino rangatiratanga but claiming that they know more about these words than fluent speakers of Maori is ridiculous. Only people of Maori ancestry would claim to be Maori, and they refer to themselves as Maori not part-Maori regardless of their percentage of Maori ancestry. To use the term part-Maori about people who avoid using the term about themselves is deliberately insulting. Black Americans are no longer called niggers. The Maori Affairs Amendment Act 1974 defines a Maori as
Great business, Ellis Bryers. Great article, Zoe Hunter
Posted on 30-07-2015 12:33 | By Peter Dey
Regardless of regular writers repeating all the arguments that we have had many times before, Ellis Bryer's business, Mihi Engagement, is excellent, and so is the article by Zoe Hunter about it. Ellis is outstandingly talented, and using his talents for greater racial harmony is marvellous. Writers who promote the nonsense that all non-Maori have been relegated to being second class citizens, and that the meaning of the Treaty of Waitangi has been rewritten are deluded. Maori have simply had compensation for past injustice, which takes nothing from non-Maori; and ignorant Pakeha, who tried to tell us that they knew more about the meaning of the Treaty than fluent Maori speakers, have fooled only the foolish.
Weeping waters
Posted on 30-07-2015 13:11 | By crazyhorse
Margaret Mutu the Scottish high priestess of hate teaching maori studies at Auckland uni is a part author of this book and being a part maori scholar has her version of the TOW,as you would, anyone who wants to read something really distorted, but, more frightning written by someone teaching in a uni should get on line and read, then have a good think about where "our" treaty will lead us and what it will be used for in the future, more treaty's, more trough's?
Captain Sensible, not second class citizens
Posted on 30-07-2015 14:05 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible repeats his claims that non-Maori are now second class citizens. The One New Zealand Foundation, the 1law4all Party, and John Ansell's Colourblind New Zealand have all made the same claim but have faded from view. The reason that they have faded is that they have not been able to back up their claim with credible evidence. They all seem resentful of Maori achievement and say that this achievement has come from ripping Pakeha off. Ellis Bryers shows clearly that Maori are achieving through their own efforts and ripping nobody off. Non-Maori control Government, police, army, health system, welfare system, local bodies, State Housing, and education system. Maori control none of these. If there are any second class citizens in New Zealand they are certainly not non-Maori.
Kenworthlogger,
Posted on 30-07-2015 14:24 | By robin bell
CONDOR,desperately pleads for you to stay onside. Like that's a problem eh! kenny. Her "opinions" illustrate vividly her twisted overview of recent (probably all) history. The Maori Affairs Amendment Act 1974 did change the definition of who should or could be legally considered Maori. A hangover from colonial times that the U.N. AND ALL CIVILISED nations considered draconian and wrong. Her opinionated assertion that these changes took place " in an effort to perpetuate the race based NONSENSE surrounding Maori and primarily to reinvent and reincarnate the criteria on who could claim to be Maori" is ABJECT garbage, and typical of the fear mongering misinformation some people have swallowed,hook, line and sinker. Well done one and all. Robin Bell.
Maori Blood
Posted on 30-07-2015 15:13 | By Jitter
I have a son in law who is 1/16 Maori, his father was an All Black and they are both on the General Electoral Roll. My son in law wants nothing to do with Waitangi Claims or the people who make up these "dishonest and twisted claims" as he puts it.Most people don't know he has any Maori blood as he is white and blond as are his children.He knows his Maori history in great detail and I must say it is far different from what is spouted by the activist separatists who claim everything for themselves.
Crazyhorse, there is no Treaty trough
Posted on 30-07-2015 15:24 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse repeats the discredited claim that Treaty settlements have been a trough for Maori to rip-off Pakeha. Maori have received about $2 billion in Treaty settlements. They had about $20 billion of land defrauded from them, so they have received about 10% compensation. The Government budget is about $100 billion a year. Treaty settlements have taken about 20 years so far to pay $2 billion compensation, $100,000 per year, which is 0.1% of Government spending. Maori have received about 0.1% of Government spending every year, in justified compensation. This is not a Treaty trough, and people who call it that obviously have some other reason to resent Maori achievement. Treaty settlements is clearly not one.
Jitter, you do not make sense
Posted on 30-07-2015 15:38 | By Peter Dey
Jitter's son-in-law with 1/16 Maori ancestry is under no pressure to make contact with Maori culture but if he wants to then people like Ellis Bryers are now providing an opportunity. Good on Ellis. Maori activists are generally not separatists. The tiny number of Maori separatists are a drop in the bucket as far as the total Maori community is concerned. The Maori Political Party, the Kingitanga, the NZ Maori Council, and proudly independent Tuhoe do not have separatism as their goal. Separatism would be Maori communities living on their own and having no involvement with the wider community. Maori are not wanting this or claiming everything for themselves. Somebody has been fed misinformation if they believe that Treaty claims are twisted and dishonest. There is no credible evidence to support that claim.
Weeping Waters!!
Posted on 30-07-2015 16:12 | By robin bell
The high priest of misinformation, Crazyhorse selectively chooses Margaret Mutu as some kind of example of Maori thinking. Ms Mutu is an extremist, she no more represent Maori than Crazyhorse,YOGI BEAR or jitter represent Non Maori. That she teaches Maori studies at A.U. is no more or less worrying than the not so profound David Round ,rabble rousing,racist lecturer in constitutional law at Canterbury university,who spoke recently in Tauranga and called for "civil war if we don't get our way". Robin Bell.
Peter i can do it too
Posted on 30-07-2015 18:16 | By Kenworthlogger
Only people of English Heritage know the english language best so Maori cant say they can explain in English what the words in question Mean. Do you think Maori can expain in better in English that English people??? Maoris are part Maori just like other races are part anything. WHo cars what the UN says. Fredom of speech is exactly that.
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 30-07-2015 20:20 | By Captain Sensible
I have typed out these maori race based privileges on these forums for three years. Every time you revert to your childish MO by denying everything. I have given details of these privileges and I have asked you to provide any details of non-maori race based privileges that are not available to maori. There are none of course as everyone knows. Only maori-only race based privileges exist in NZ. Nobody should admire anyone whose achievements were handed to them on a racist platter. Nobody admires it....but everybody pays for it as we slip further into a two tier social system of the elite part maori, and the second class non-maori. For example over $30 billion has been paid out to part maori on spurious claims, most proven as lies, yet not one european family has been compensated for the butchering of their ancestors by maori despite eyewitness accounts.
@ robin bell
Posted on 31-07-2015 06:15 | By Captain Sensible
When the 85% majority of kiwis are treated as second class ....denied hundreds of race based privileges that are only available to the elite part race, then of course there will discontent. Why should any kiwi accept second class status based on bloodlines? Unrest grows by the day.
Unrest grows by the day.
Posted on 31-07-2015 08:57 | By robin bell
You have got to be joking Cap'n. I have asked you a hundred times to give the detail you claim to have given. Not once have you done it. There are no so-called race based privileges,all the initiatives aimed at improving Maori health, education, living conditions are available to non Maori where needed. I challenge you again,show the privileges you claim. Your figure of $30 billion is equally false and clearly intended to stir discontent. The true figure stands at $2.4 billion over 20 yrs for land your ancestors stole from the powerless indigenous people of New Zealand. Well done cap'n. Robin Bell.
THERE YOU HAVE IT
Posted on 31-07-2015 09:05 | By crazyhorse
Straight from Peter, part maori are not Separatist's and don't want separatism from their fellow countrymen. Strange, Tuhoe want their own state seeing as they didn't sign the treaty, and if they didn't sign the treaty why are they included in any settlements, I can remember having this chat with you before Peter, you agreed Tuhoe wanted a separate state but that was OK because they were maori.
Race based privilege's
Posted on 31-07-2015 09:36 | By crazyhorse
Robin you know full well there are maori only "schemes" set up, what about maori scholarships, non maori cannot take these up, I know to get one you just have to say you're maori, but, that's not the point, what about the "white' author refused entry into maori only writing awards,ah double standards they are coming thick and fast, apartheid NZ.
Why you should care kenny
Posted on 31-07-2015 09:43 | By robin bell
The United Nations are just that kenny United.Not perfect granted but when a country like New Zealand as you would have it, with total disregard for peoples rights, particularly those of the indigenous population,look out. One of the reasons Japan entered the second world war was in protest against Britain And U.S.A. refusing to pressurise Australia and others including N.Z. into dropping their racist immigration laws. An easier way kenny is to impose trade restrictions etc.Not too many jobs for logging truck drivers then kenny. "Think" before you leap, you may get more than you bargained for. Robin Bell.
What a load of rubbish
Posted on 31-07-2015 10:48 | By crazyhorse
Bell say's Japan joined ww2 because of our racism, Japan has one of the strictist of all emigration policies, try to buy a house there or apply for Japanese citizenship. You really topped yourself this time princess!.
Kenworthlogger, translating Maori is the problem
Posted on 31-07-2015 11:35 | By Peter Dey
Kenworthlogger, nobody is claiming that Maori are better at explaining the meaning of the English version of the Treaty. It is the translation of the Maori version into English that is the problem. Pakeha who cannot speak Maori but who argue with fluent speakers of Maori about the meanings of Maori words are being ridiculous.
Crazyhorse, Tuhoe do not want their own state
Posted on 31-07-2015 11:45 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, you show that you are getting desperate when you accuse people of things that they have never said. Tuhoe do not say that they want a separate state. Maori who say that they want a separate state are an insignificant minority. Pakeha who say that Maori want separatism are simply revealing their own ignorance.
Captain Sensible and race based privileges
Posted on 31-07-2015 11:58 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible should present us again with a list of race based privileges for Maori, but it is better if he lists only those items that make Maori significantly better off than Pakeha, does not include items like health and education where Maori receive the same spending as Pakeha but in Maori friendly ways, do not include spending on Maori that is removal of Pakeha domination rather than any extra benefit, and do not include Treaty settlements that are compensation for financial loss. Captain Sensible should put only major items on his list. A long list of trivial items proves nothing.
Zoe Hunter, what a fantastic article
Posted on 31-07-2015 12:06 | By Peter Dey
Zoe Hunter has done an amazing job with this article on Ellis Bryers. It is absolutely clear from the article that Ellis is not ramming Maori culture down anybody's throat. He is not begging for handouts. He is simply helping businesses who have Maori customers and want to build better relationships with them. He is doing a good enough job that other businesses are willing to pay him for his services. Maori culture is a living part of New Zealand culture, which most of us want to value, and which we often take pride in when we go overseas.
Captain Sensible, only Maori were defrauded by the Government
Posted on 31-07-2015 12:17 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible again mentions Pakeha who suffered injustice at the hands of Maori in our early history. Anything that happened before 1840 can not be appealed about now because there was no Pakeha authority in place before 1840. Any crime by Maori against Pakeha after 1840 was dealt with by the Pakeha Government. There will always be people dissatisfied with the decisions of the justice system, but all Pakeha since 1840 have had a justice system available to them.
Crazyhorse, all tribes defrauded get compensation
Posted on 31-07-2015 12:32 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse has been told this before. The Government defrauded Maori of about $20 billion of land. Many of those Maori tribes defrauded had not signed the Treaty. The Waitangi Tribunal was set up recognising that compensation for Government land fraud justified compensation in all cases. Only irrational anti-Maori extremists disagree with this fair and sensible approach. Why do people think it was ok for the Government to steal land from tribes who did not sign the Treaty? Theft is wrong, end of story.
WHO
Posted on 31-07-2015 13:38 | By ROCCO
Clown grievers Abbott and Costello duet are at it again pedalling their brand of preferential race based privileges for uno who.These comedians ignorance and self inflicted tunnel vision stems from the refusal to accept that there is only one legitimate Treaty the maori version, there is one genuine final Hobson draft the "Littlewood" draft which essentially cross translate word for word with one another. Having dealt with that let us be quite clear there is no reference to any treaty principles nor treaty partnership nor fisheries forests rivers lakes seabeds etc. etc. in either of these documents. Those spurious items have all arisen and been fabricated by warped political and judicial utterances and are pure unadulterated fiction. Trying to justify the inane puffery based on modern day pro separatist historians cuts no mustard in the face of the works of reputable unbiased historians of the era in question.
Well said Rocco
Posted on 31-07-2015 14:42 | By Kenworthlogger
Your post reflects what the silent majority of New Zealander think but dont want to speak out for fear of being called a raceist. Pity the tunnel vision duo here dont become like Ellis Bryers does and use his culture to earn a living rather than moan about acient history whilst sitting there constantly with their hand out.
ROCCO, you are being fooled
Posted on 31-07-2015 14:42 | By Peter Dey
ROCCO, Governor Hobson sent an official copy of the Maori version of the Treaty and an official copy of the English version of the Treaty to his superiors on February 5-6 1840, according to Claudia Orange's research. These documents still exist in British archives. Nobody has produced any evidence that Claudia Orange has got this wrong. What this means is that Governor Hobson decided to have two versions, Maori and English, that do not translate exactly. ROCCO has got to be extremely na
Captain Sensible, Crazyhorse, Jitter, ROCCO, YOGI BEAR all fooled
Posted on 31-07-2015 15:03 | By Peter Dey
People believe what they want to believe. If somebody tells them something that they want to believe, then they are capable of passing it on as truth without checking it out themselves. Anti-Maori extremists have created propaganda misinformation about the Treaty of Waitangi, the Waitangi Tribunal, Treaty settlements, so called special privileges for Maori, and special favours for the Maori Party. Writers here are passing this misinformation on as true when the people who produce it have no reputable academic or professional knowledge at all. We are told that an expert who is not anti-Maori is biased. It is the anti-Maori extremists who are misinformed with biased material that they seem incapable of checking for themselves.
Peter
Posted on 31-07-2015 15:37 | By Kenworthlogger
What Govener Hobson did can be undone. All laws can be changed mate.
kiwi
Posted on 31-07-2015 16:45 | By Pete KELLY
I too am Maori,I'm told my Grandma may have slept with old Hone (there's a few Hone's come and gone). I eat fish'n chips,know more Maori than most Maori,love fishing, eat Puha and Watercress with Porkbones etc etc. So, what's the problem with people like Peter Dey and Robin Bell?Don't know where they get all the info they write rubbish about. We are all Kiwis at the end of the day, have fought Maori and Pakeha under the same flag,play Rugby and other sport together and generally get on fine.I reckon there's as many radical Pakeha as there are Maori and from what I've read and heard these radicals have private axes to grind and chips on their shoulders.Why don't we all just pull our heads in and get on living in the best country in the world.
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 31-07-2015 18:22 | By Captain Sensible
Equality is about equal opportunities, NOT equal results. If the individual refuses to try, then more and more oil goes to the squeaky wheel....provided of course, they are part maori. That is undemocratic, unfair, racist and an insult to 85% of kiwis.
Well Said
Posted on 01-08-2015 16:40 | By Jitter
Pete Kelly now we are getting to the nitty gritty at last.
His Not Mine Zoe Hunter
Posted on 01-08-2015 17:25 | By carpedeum
Sorry Zoe- please dont presume that this man's culture is " ours" I am a New Zealander First and foremost.He is welcome to his and I am welcome to mine. Our ancestors ( and ourselves for some recent ones ) have come by either ship canoe or plane.I choose to respect other cultures here including the Maori as well as the Colonists, Dutch, Yugoslavia,Chinese,Indian and other Asians,Americans etc etc. Please stop trying to separate us into boxes-WE ARE ALL EQUAL NEW ZEALANDERS.
Pete Kelly, well said
Posted on 01-08-2015 17:31 | By Peter Dey
Everything that Pete Kelly has written is well said apart from saying that Peter Dey is writing rubbish. If Pete Kelly thinks that Maori are getting preferential special treatment it would be good if he tells us where he is getting his information from. All that Peter Dey is doing is pointing out that anti-Maori moaners have got their facts wrong.
Pete KELLY
Posted on 01-08-2015 17:41 | By Crash test dummies
Excellent sir, that is it, if everyone just got on with life, worked, family and all that then none of the run of blogs below would then exist.
Congratulations
Posted on 01-08-2015 22:07 | By The Master
Robin and Peter, Korekore, kewa
Thank you Peter and Robin
Posted on 01-08-2015 22:41 | By Secret Squirrel
I have below written something appropriate that recognizes your efforts here. Tanga teanga mataku kamate ko rot e wai kuaretanga hokomomohara tangata-maka eoho kahaki akureki haku, hohonu hokorekore, tute oeha tangata kaha tapatupatu
And there you have it.
Posted on 02-08-2015 09:57 | By crazyhorse
Peter reads the same from the same media as everyone else but see's not special concessions for part maori, not a week goes by that some new separatist scheme is announced or someone is caught "rorting' one of the 100"s of existing ones, let him give his apologies for Whanau Ora maybe,or am I being " racist? "
Pete Kelly,
Posted on 02-08-2015 10:40 | By robin bell
you seem to believe Peter Dey and speak rubbish.Put up your evidence, if you can't,you simply join the crowd that make similar accusations without proof. You claim you are Maori on the pretext that your grandmother "MIGHT" have slept with Hone. We all know that is a rather pathetic attempt at humour but underlines the disrespect you have for Maori and your grandmother. Robin Bell.
More of the same please Zoe,
Posted on 02-08-2015 13:34 | By robin bell
take no notice of carpedeum, he and friends have closed minds regarding the place of Maori in our society. If carpedeum cannot see the importance of including Maori culture in "our" culture, he is not part of "our" culture, just his own. He is the poorer for it, we are the richer.He has no more intention of including "other" cultures, other than on the basis of "its his way or not at all" Sad really. Robin Bell.
Sorry about that Pete Kelly
Posted on 02-08-2015 13:56 | By crazyhorse
You put a thoughtful post up and you get a "gob full" fully agree with you're comment and enjoyed you're sense of humour, no you weren't insulting you're gran but Bell has taken that you have insulted his "friend" Peter Dey, they're very close you may have noticed, don't be put off,have another crack ,sticks and stones, cheers.
William and Orange
Posted on 02-08-2015 15:12 | By ROCCO
Sorry Mr Bell you're in a state of denial .The Treaty the maori version only was signed by assembled chiefs and Governor WilliamHobson on 6 February1840 and no English version was ever signed on that day so he could not have sent an official copy of the maori treaty to anyone on the 5 February1840 nor could he have sent an official copy of an English version on the 5th or 6th of February1840 because one never existed.The maori treaty was prepared from the LittlewoodDraft of 4 February1840 being Hobson's final draft which cross translates perfectly with the signed maori treaty whereas the subsequent bogus Freeman version does not.Hobson in his own words confirmed that the Maori treaty(Tiriti o Waitangi) was the only treaty. All this is really irrefutable but if you wish to cling to your fictions be my guest and spell out the sequence in detail.
Whanau Ora,
Posted on 02-08-2015 15:21 | By robin bell
Crazyhorse continues his unjustified criticism of a social welfare initiative aimed at improving the health and education of All participants Maori and others. Perhaps Crazyhorse should come back from Australia and witness the improvements Whanau Ora is making. Perhaps he will then be able to witness the waiting rooms full of Patients of all ethnicities, waiting patiently with their Maori counterparts. PERHAPS. Robin Bell.
PORKIES
Posted on 02-08-2015 17:12 | By crazyhorse
There is only one treaty and it is the maori text Te Tirity o Waitangi that the chiefs singed, The Waitangi tribunal has used notes gathered by JS Freeman dated 3rd Feb 1840, which bears little in common with the maori text the gov't has " enshrined" this false document in the treaty of Waitangi act 1975, they have at their disposal the actual draft dated 4 Feb 1840 by James Busby but refuse to acknowledge it. Instead they got "honest' Hugh Kawharu to back translate the maofi treaty even though he was member of the tribunal and claimant at the time, he introduced new words and meanings for mischievous purposes, the gov't have used the differences between the true treaty and Kawharu's falsr versions as an excuse to seek clarification from the courts, and the courts have come up with the principles.
When it is not convenient just stack the deck
Posted on 02-08-2015 17:32 | By kellbell
Correct assessments are being made as to part maori designations -as far as I am aware no one else anywhere in the world allows you to call yourself a particular race unless you have at least 50% bloodlines and can prove it.So in NZ as a result of pressure etc.the 1974 LabourGovernment legislated to change how the rest of the world viewed things and created a statutory race class which demonstrated absolute stuffwittery at its PC best.Quixotic would be a nice description and if the dipsticks had not done that then the 1975 Waitangi Tribunal Act would have meant the WTF Tribunal was virtually redundant before it started as few would have met the accepted criteria for or the accepted definition of maori hence no claims.How wonderful that would have been & we would all be getting on with each other and our lives very well today as Kiwis.
Whanu Ora
Posted on 02-08-2015 17:37 | By Jitter
Robin Bell, even the Auditor General after her investigation into where Whanu Ora is spending their money could not work out what Whanu Ora does, or where the money goes. Tururoa Flavell has been requested by Maori TV "Native Affairs" and parliament to produce a report on Whanu Ora's activities but to date he has been unable to do so. So don't go on about what a wonderful job Whanu Ora is doing. It is obviously helping some people but a lot of its finances are just disappearing.
Special Priveleges
Posted on 02-08-2015 17:49 | By Jitter
Robin Bell should study Pharmac, MEDSAFE, Health and Disability Ethics Committee and the RMS policies and legistlation for starters to see what special priveleges Maori have been handed by successive governments in these areas. Pharmac have recenly (2014) added some more. When you query these the answer you get is "they are committed to fulfill the obligation of the Crown under the Treaty of Waitangi". The way I read all the versions of the Treaty I have read is that "the Crown is obligated to ALL the people of NZ" not one small select group.
boring denials
Posted on 02-08-2015 18:11 | By Captain Sensible
Why do you childishly deny, deny, deny, when presented with evidence and then demand.... evidence?! I have listed some of the racist maori-only privileges with cross references,dozens of times but you just ignore and deny. Stop acting like a spoilt child and get a backbone. Any racist privilege, is a racist privilege. I have been waiting for three years for you both to come up with a race based privilege only available to non-maori, and denied to maori.......still waiting. Come on, try again, one, just one!
Read the comment princess
Posted on 02-08-2015 18:25 | By crazyhorse
Health and welfare of all, maori and ? You've lost me. I was talking about all the personal "withdrawal's" Robin the constant rorting' swilling from the tax payer filled trough!.
Peter Dey
Posted on 02-08-2015 18:37 | By Major Think
Ok Peter, here's another one for you to deny until the cows come home; special wards in hospitals for Maori only. There are Public wards for all races....and then there are special Maori-only wards. I can confirm there are no race based "non-Maori wards", so please, go ahead, try to deny that these Maori only wards exist.
Time
Posted on 02-08-2015 18:57 | By Kenworthlogger
Looks like Robin and Batman have too much time on their hands....
Bell
Posted on 02-08-2015 19:10 | By crazyhorse
New Zealand has a health system, surprise surprise it can be accessed by anyone.
I am disappointed but would like to know.
Posted on 02-08-2015 19:32 | By groutby
Disappointed by many of the "harsh" and "vindictive" posts here, I guess you could call them racist if you are of that persuasion, but I and maybe others, would like to know a definative answer to the last sentence from poster ROCCO in regard to the Treaty signing..if you know can you tell please? or maybe a link to a reputable site for the information. Many thanks....
James, Henry and James
Posted on 02-08-2015 22:28 | By Secret Squirrel
ROCCO, That
What everyone has forgotten
Posted on 03-08-2015 08:58 | By crazyhorse
Is that maori wanted the TOW not "us" it took years for the poms go agree, and the only thing that matters is the offer of the treaty and the "acceptance" happened in 1840 and so we are only interested in the meanings that the words had in the treaty in 1840, to put modern meanings to words written in 1840 is manipulation, and to what end would that be for The treaty was penned by European's, the European meaning is paramount, it is the offer, the signing by maori is the acceptance of the offer. Why maori wanted the TOW,I mean the real reason. To abolish or end slavery,infanticide, cannibalism, the introduction of law and being granted the rights of British subjects. Where have all the blatant lies and bull #### come from that we are "forced" to listen to now, ask promaori researcher Damage Orange?.
Sorry, but your all wrong.
Posted on 03-08-2015 09:31 | By robin bell
The first copy of the proposed treaty was prepared by Hobson and his secretary Freeman. Busby was not happy and improved it 3-2-1840.A copy of this draft was given to Williams and son to translate into Maori. On the 6th approx 40 chiefs and HOBSON signed that copy.On 6th or a few days later the Maori text and an English translation was sent to Gipps in Sydney, with signatures of Hobson and Williams who authenticated them with the words;"I certify that the above is as literal a translation of The Treaty of Waitangi as the idiom of the language will permit".(Public Record Office London C.O 2097, 13-15.The Maori and the official English text was sent to London on October 1 1840.(C.O. 209/7,178).This was to record BOTH official texts.The ONLY copies to bear the title "Treaty of Waitangi".The Littlewood draft is unverified,unsigned and invalid. Robin Bell.
The British also
Posted on 03-08-2015 10:40 | By robin bell
wanted a treaty. Pre-emption to control greedy land speculation. The threat of French annexation, humanitarian considerations (welfare of Maori.) Systematic Colonisation by the N.Z.Company etc etc .Why would anyone take the word of an ex motor mechanic (Ross Baker aka Crazyhorse) over that of highly qualified historians such as Dame Claudia Orange? Conspiracy that's why. Robin Bell.
The British also?
Posted on 03-08-2015 11:33 | By crazyhorse
Yeah, right, that's another reason maori wanted the treaty, they were terrified of UTU when the frogs turned up, can you remember why the maori were afraid of the French Robin?, been a bit naughty,killed and ate some French sailor's.
Living in denial of reality
Posted on 03-08-2015 12:18 | By ROCCO
Memo for the edification of Messrs Bell&Dey.Yes of course the British saw merit in a treaty for most of the reasons you outline as did maori for reasons that are equally well known. That's why Hobson was sent, why northern chiefs assembled at Waitangi,why the treaty was drafted and why the parties signed it only in the maori language on 6February1840.Those conclusions are night follows day stuff.You can rabbit on as much as you like about treaty drafts English versions of the treaty etc. and what was sent where and by whom but the fact is there is only one legitimate signed treaty and it is the maori version of the Tiriti oWaitangi and no signed English version exists.However when you can cross translate the final Hobson draft (Littlewood) word for word with the maori treaty then you have the same meaning without ambiguity in both languages.Follow that? QED
Whanau Ora jitters
Posted on 03-08-2015 13:07 | By robin bell
Sut ydych chi.You have claimed to be Welsh then you changed it to English, so confused.Whanau Ora has similar connotations to the efforts made in Britain to renew the Welsh language and all round health. The cost of setting Whanau Ora up is the only area that is of concern 32% of funding compared to the usual 25% with other gv't dept's. The money is NOT disappearing jitter, Its being used. It is not Maori Only!!! Robin Bell.
Major Think, Maori wards cost no more than general wards
Posted on 03-08-2015 13:10 | By Peter Dey
Major Think you highlight the weakness in the claims of special treatment for Maori. Maori wards cost no more than general wards to run. They are simply the same services being provided in a more Maori friendly way. Whanau Ora is the same. It is the provision of the same services that have always been provided but in a more Maori friendly way. Maori schools are the same, same funding more Maori friendly provision of services. Pakeha who call this preferential treatment are being totally misleading. Maori are getting no more than they got before.
Captain Sensible give us the 5 costliest special privileges for Maori
Posted on 03-08-2015 13:21 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible has previously given us lists of programmes specially for Maori, but it seems that he includes a great deal of spending on Maori that is just the same as Maori have always received but now with Maori providers. Captain Sensible can surely select the 5 most expensive preferential spending programmes for Maori. The reason his lists have been denied in the past is that they include a whole lot of items that are not preferential for Maori.
ROCCO, read Robin's
Posted on 03-08-2015 13:35 | By Peter Dey
Robin Bell has given us a brilliant summary of factual evidence to show that our current Maori and English versions of the Treaty are those authorised by Governor Hobson. They are not exact translations but that was Governor Hobson's decision. Clearly the Littlewood draft was the final draft used in the preparation of the Maori Treaty version, but Governor Hobson never gave it any official status. Those who claim that the Maori version is the only true version are in denial over Governor Hobson's decision to have an authorised English version, the one we still use.
Created treaty?
Posted on 03-08-2015 14:32 | By MISS ADVENTURE
The English version Robin refers to was sent by Freeman and on the 8th February 1840, and via NSW, that much is known. The problem is that this flowery worded unsigned English version does not translate to the signed version Tiriti o Waitangi. So that of itself discredits it no matter whoever he sent it to. The obvious question is why did Freeman send a copy of the 3rd February rough draft when by the 8th he well know it was not the final draft? Robin even acknowledges that and so does Messer Moon.
Addendum
Posted on 03-08-2015 14:35 | By MISS ADVENTURE
The English version sent by Freeman was not signed by Hobson, the signature was a a fraud, even Hobson stated hat. he also made it abundantly clear that the only treaty was Tiriti o Waitangi, the signed one. These facts are well recorded and when the author and signatory states it then it is very very hard to get past that with some other story.
Living in denial??? ROCCO.
Posted on 03-08-2015 15:36 | By robin bell
The Waikato-Manakau Sheet signed by 32 Chiefs Authenticated by Maunsell and B.Y Ashwell as witnesses on 11-4-1840 + seven more names added on 26-4 Archives New Zealand 1A 9/9 is written in English,using the Official English text it bears Hobsons seal and signature. Robin Bell.
October 1 1840
Posted on 03-08-2015 17:02 | By MISS ADVENTURE
Robin you have said that it was sent on this date, that can not be right as you previously said it was sent February 8 1840, so now we have two very different dates of two different documents sent to England. I would recommend that when you are juggling that to keep all the balls in the air and stay there.
The Orange book
Posted on 03-08-2015 17:19 | By MISS ADVENTURE
In fact skirts around this subject and remains completely silent here, I can not find a reference at all, that means that at best there is nothing to support the notion that the Freeman rough copy/draft has any status of merit at all. If there was even a remote chance there was that would have been jumped on and claimed as truth I am sure.
Robyn Bell
Posted on 03-08-2015 20:08 | By Jitter
Diolch yn fawr Bach. Yrydych wedi rhefru digon heddiw.There is no way that you can say that Whanau Ora is doing a good job as no annual report including statistics has yet been produced or a financial report stating where the money has and how it has been spent.It appears that the people running the organisation are doing so without any audit or management controls. This is what the Auditor General was concerned with. And the government has given the organisation another $50 million of tax payers money to spend God knows where.
Nailed to the wall
Posted on 03-08-2015 20:17 | By crazyhorse
And Dey and Bell are still defending the revisionist "lies" used to feed off the New Zealand tax payer, wouldn't it be great to have Orange debate the history being discussed, but I think that will never happen, isn't it sickening someone like this can write what they want to push their own agenda, others that come to mind, Finlayson the ngae Tahu negotiator, our chief justice Sian Elias, and the majority of the members of the Waitangi tribunal, who can forget the make up of the Constitutional review panel, stacked from top to bottom with not only maori, but "radica" maori, this was suppose to mirror the NZ population, truth, they don't want the truth, the truth wouldn't deliver the swill go the trough just look what's happening with the ATM, sorry I mean Rena that sits on the Astrolabe how many iwi feeding off this, where is t
More truth or????
Posted on 03-08-2015 20:31 | By crazyhorse
Got some people here that really know their history. Maybe we could discuss another crowd favourite now the fraud has been exposed with the treaty, or treaties Parihaka and the "holocaust" that didn't happen and all the false history used to feather the nest and pave the way for more outrageous claim's, just ask Orange.
FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS
Posted on 03-08-2015 21:00 | By ROCCO
No Mister Bell I am not wrong nor am I in denial.Hobson's direction to those obtaining further signatures after the original Treaty was signed on 6 February1840 is verbatim as follows: "The treaty which forms the base of all my proceedings was signed at Waitangi on the 6th February by 52 chiefs 26 of whom were of the federation and formed a majority of those who signed the Declaration of Independence. This instrument I consider to be de facto the treaty and all signatures that are subsequently obtained are merely testimonials of adherence to the terms of that original document". Over and out Game Set and Match me old son. Just for good measure let's quote what the esteemed and respected Sir Apirana Ngata said in the early 1920's "the chiefs placed in the hands of the QueenofEngland the sovereignty and authority to make laws".Telling potent stuff I say!!
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 03-08-2015 21:13 | By Captain Sensible
I am not going to type out the list of maori race based privileges again, but I will give one that is an insult to democracy and will be topical again. The fact that part-maori, based on their race and nothing else, get positions on Councils while everyone else on that Council is voted in. Why do maori feel they are so special that they can bypass democracy and get onto a Council? BTW, I have been waiting for over three years for yourself or Robin to name one, just one, race based privilege given to non-maori that is denied to maori. Could you give me a time frame of how much longer I must wait?
@ Peter Dey
Posted on 03-08-2015 21:21 | By Captain Sensible
Look at all the scholarships available.....but non-maori are not elligible!! University scholarships and private scholarships ( eg local Port has special scholarships for maori only). And remember, just because it is legal....as it was in 1939 Germany and apartheid South Africa, does not make it OK. Racism is racism no matter how you try to dress it up. And so 85% of kiwis are victims of this abhorrent act every day as maori enjoy their race based privileges.
This is how it came to pass
Posted on 03-08-2015 21:57 | By kellbell
With all this talk about the Treaty perhaps we should refer to Paul Moon's book 'Hobson Governor of New Zealand 1840 -1842'@page10 written 1998 at a time when he was a Senior Lecturer in Maori Studies at the Auckland Institute of Technology so there is little doubt where his loyalties lay."Hobson's accomplishments....tended to be overshadowed by the TreatyofWaitangi which he concluded with maori representatives in 1840.... The TreatyofWaitangi later described as the founding document of the country was never intended by Hobson to endure as a fundamental domestic constitutional document after May 1840...by proclaiming sovereignty over the whole country.It was these proclamations of sovereignty(Acts of State) and not the Treaty which for Hobson's administration became the founding documents of formal British rule in New Zealand".Once Treaty was signed it virtually became immediately redundant as sovereignty ceded, British citizenship obtained and maori land sale rules in place and all satisfied
Miss Adventure Recommends,
Posted on 04-08-2015 09:12 | By robin bell
I'm sorry Miss when it comes to balls in the air I'm two steps ahead of you.On the 1st of October 1840 the last copy of the Treaty- a large sheet within a double border, bearing both Maori AND the OFFICIAL English text AND authenticated by HOBSON was sent to the Colonial Office London ( now at the Public Records Office CO 209/7,178) The copies sent to Gipps on or around the 6-2-1840,are also held in London. That the LITTLE Orange Book "skirts" around this subject is irrelevant, I suggest you dig a little deeper and forget Twisting the Treaty. Robin Bell.
WHERE ARE YOU WOBBIN?
Posted on 04-08-2015 10:12 | By crazyhorse
I think miss adventure is waiting for an answer, all this juggling, you need to write all these little stories you tell downdown, sosoany stories, all different, ringing any BELL'S as to how this lot work?.
MISS ADVENTURE, read page 272
Posted on 04-08-2015 11:19 | By Peter Dey
MISS ADVENTURE can find the reference to the official sending of the Hobson English version of the Treaty to his superiors on October 5-6 1840 on page 272 of Claudia Orange's book The Treaty of Waitangi. The Hobson English version is the one prepared by James Freeman. It is the only official one we have had since 1840. It was written before the Maori version so the fact that the Littlewood draft is a closer translation to the Maori version does not make the Littlewood draft official. The Hobson English version was the only English version that Governor Hobson ever used.
ROCCO, thank you
Posted on 04-08-2015 11:41 | By Peter Dey
"The treaty which forms the base of all my proceedings was signed at Waitangi on the 6th February by 52 chiefs . This instrument I consider to be de facto the treaty and all signatures that are subsequently obtained are merely testimonials of adherence to the terms of that original document". These are Governor Hobson's words, but by his actions we understand that he did not mean that his Hobson English version had no status. Actions speak louder than words. Governor Hobson's actions show that the words above need to be understood in context.
Smoke and mirrors ROCCO.
Posted on 04-08-2015 12:35 | By robin bell
You should never proclaim victory prematurely, old boy. No one here is arguing about sovereignty. Of course Hobson had to declare the validity of the first signings, what do you think people would have thought had he said "hold on chaps,just have to get the other copies signed, might take a while" bare with.The only fact we are concerned with is the validity of the English language version, and that was authenticated numerous times by Hobson and other notaries. The current attempts by the Treaty trashing fraternity of which you are a member are pathetic and bound to fail. Robin Bell.
Captain Sensible, the education system failed Maori
Posted on 04-08-2015 12:46 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible says that Maori only scholarships are race based privileges that discriminate against the 85% Pakeha population. Captain Sensible has to accept that our education system is Pakeha dominated and that Maori failure is much greater than for Pakeha. Maori only scholarships are an attempt to improve Maori success in education. The more Maori success we have the better off we all are. To complain about this is ridiculous. Maori only scholarships take nothing from Pakeha at all.
kellbell
Posted on 04-08-2015 12:59 | By MISS ADVENTURE
I think that about sums up the few loose ends that remained. it is clear that there are two lines of argument here, one based on truth, fact and evidence, the other a selective, desired path based on the desired outcome. That position is simply to justify all done in between and to come. The whole thing then becomes self justifying so long as the "inconvenient truths" are ignored. You and others have exposed the Bell and Dey underbelly for what it is, we just need them to get up to speed and the subject will then be closed.
Captain Sensible, Pakeha Government is a race based privilege
Posted on 04-08-2015 13:00 | By Peter Dey
Captain Sensible, talking about race based privilege, ignores the fact that Government, local bodies, education, health, housing, and social welfare are all Pakeha dominated. Helen Clark removed the right of Maori to claim ownership of any part of the foreshore. Our education system is pakeha dominated and makes it harder for Maori to achieve. It is race based privilege for Pakeha to live in a Pakeha dominated society. There is no need for any special assistance for Pakeha. They do not experience the same amount of racial disadvantage that Maori do.
MISS ADVENTURE, read page 272
Posted on 04-08-2015 13:06 | By MISS ADVENTURE
That sounds great, however there is a small problem as Robin inadvertently noted, the dates are very different, 8th February and October 1840, some six months so your story and that of Bell are very different, perhaps you should have another meeting to ensure that your stories are the same. Then perhaps a little meaningful research also would not go amiss. I would suggest you cast you net a little wider than the little orange book, that is rife with gaps and anomalies.
MISS ADVENTURE, you are unable to refute page 272
Posted on 04-08-2015 13:23 | By Peter Dey
MISS ADVENTURE, page 272 of Claudia Orange's book provides clear evidence that the Hobson version of the Treaty was sent on several occasions to his superiors. This evidence still exists in British archives as recorded in Claudia Orange's book. it is clear that there are two lines of argument here, one based on truth, fact and evidence, the other a selective, desired path based on the desired outcome. You have failed to refute Claudia Orange's evidence.
YOGI BEAR aka MISS ADVENTURE
Posted on 04-08-2015 13:35 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR, your writing style, your habit of carrying on as though facts that you cannot refute do not matter, and your habit of making outlandish claims without any credible evidence to support them, make it seem that MISS ADVENTURE is simply a new name for the same identity. Your style is unique.
Government is racist
Posted on 04-08-2015 14:38 | By MISS ADVENTURE
I agree Robin, thre are race based seats that provide an undeniable preference to a few and just a few, that is clearly against the human rights of all others, I am glad you have acknowledged and accepted that now.
Claudia Orange
Posted on 04-08-2015 14:41 | By MISS ADVENTURE
Her book and ravings before and after are not evidence, like yourselves Robin and Peter, you have failed on all counts to provide any independent and verifiable evidence, equally you have failed to acknowledge the colossal amount of evidence against what you say here. Instead of stumping up 'evidence' you regularly resort to personal attacks on the persona of the blogger, so reinforcing the obvious answer, that you got nothing.
Miss Adventure Throws in the towel,
Posted on 04-08-2015 15:15 | By robin bell
Don't fret too much "miss" you join a very "select" group. When you set out to overturn the accepted evidence that history provides,when you dispute the accepted evidence of professional historians, you need a far more solid base than that "provided" by T.the T. Ross (crazyhorse) Baker,John Ansell, Bruce Moon and all the other self appointed Alternative History exponents. Take some well meant advice, " when you read what others write, concentrate and absorb,it will help you to quote correctly" Robin Bell
MISS ADVENTURE, you have not refuted concrete evidence
Posted on 04-08-2015 15:54 | By Peter Dey
MISS ADVENTURE, you say that Claudia Orange's book is not evidence, but it is her evidence from British archive sources that show that you are wrong. Claudia Orange simply points out where this evidence can be found. What British archives show is that the Hobson English version of the Treaty was sent to Britain on several different occasions, starting on February 5-6 1840. This means that the Littlewood draft was only a working draft for translation purposes that Governor Hobson never used in an official capacity. The Hobson English version of the Treaty is the only one he ever used in an official capacity.
Yes Peter
Posted on 04-08-2015 16:10 | By robin bell
you beat me to it. Miss Adventure aka YOGI BEAR aka The Master aka Secret Squirrel,an insight into the mind games this foolish Political Activist plays.Such fun!!! another ex motor mechanic with ideas above his capability. Bill Faulkner did warn us all those years ago. Robin Bell.
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