Re: ‘Pondering payouts' (The Weekend Sun, March 27). B Johnson of Omokoroa appears to be a very average New Zealander indeed, attempting to make a virtue out of ignorance.
Johnson can't tell the difference between New Zealand race relations and the criminal court system. The Waitangi settlements are due to a number of events that happened in and around 1840, concerning Queen Victoria and Maori.
David Bain was on trial for allegedly murdering his family in Dunedin. As a starting point for understanding the former, I suggest Johnson try reading Claudia Orange's ‘Illustrated Treaty of Waitangi'.
A McKenzie, Tauranga City.
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51 comments
no cred'
Posted on 11-04-2015 21:49 | By Captain Sensible
Claudia Orange has no credibility whatsoever as her literature is riddled with her own fantasy versions of what happened. Most historians are interested in real facts ...not making up facts to suit an industry that we in NZ call the "grieving industry"
C'mon cap'n
Posted on 13-04-2015 10:04 | By robin bell
you lost this argument years ago. In fact you and your treaty trashing mates are the only ones grieving. Robin Bell.
@ robin bell
Posted on 14-04-2015 15:37 | By Captain Sensible
Hahahah Robin, we grieve when we see the grieving experts with their make-it-up-as-you-go grievances strip the rights and cash from 80% of the NZ population. I have shown you dozens of race based privileges only available to part-maori.......and still I await one race based privileges not available to maori that is only available to non-maori. I have been waiting for years. So until you come up with one, the arguement has been won by me.
Dozens? cap'n,
Posted on 14-04-2015 17:29 | By robin bell
actually not one.The last one you gave was the scholarship awarded by Ports of Tauranga. Positive discrimination in order to encourage Maori achievement.No privilege in that as similar scholarships are available to non Maori.There are NO "make it up as you go" claims cap'n, like the rest of your mates you invent without proof. People fall for it,until they learn the truth, there you fall down. Robin Bell.
@ robin bell
Posted on 15-04-2015 09:53 | By Captain Sensible
Robin, being childish by denying that I have given you examples is boring. I realise that is your MO but sometimes it seems I am arguing with a 5 year old. No maori privilege eh? Maori only schools, maori only scholarships, maori political party, special NON-ELECTED maori seats on council, maori only prison programmes, maori only rights to issue permits to plunder the sea with NO limits to size or quantity (
Boring? cap'n
Posted on 15-04-2015 12:03 | By robin bell
for once we agree. I am as bored as you. However misinformation and prejudice has to be opposed, that is my M.O. cap'n. All of the examples you give of so called privilege have been dismissed many times. That you don't recognise Maori as partners in N.Z. is nothing new cap'n but simply reflects your uninformed prejudice. Thankfully successive governments do not agree with you.Of course you simply dismiss anyone who does not share your prejudice, as conspirators or worse. Maori make up 15% OF OUR POPULATION they are the founding partner of this nation, as such they are entitled to education, housing, representation by themselves and assistance reflective of their position. It is happening cap'n, in spite of your,and others prejudice. Vive la difference. Robin Bell.
@ robin bell
Posted on 15-04-2015 16:14 | By Captain Sensible
Like I said in my first two sentences of my last reply. And as I have asked you for many years, you still have no answer; Name ONE, just ONE race based government imposed privilege that is not open to maori so racially favours non-maori. Just ONE. Until you give an answer, I, by way of providing accurate answers, must be the winner. BTW, are you denying those examples I just gave? If so, then, I have given you the benefit of the doubt as to my statement of arguing with a five year old. I assure you, with minimal research, those racist privileges can be declared real. A privilege that for maori is "positive discrimination", by definition is NEGATIVE discrimination against the remaining 85% of kiwis. Even a five year old could understand that.
Race based,cap'n.
Posted on 16-04-2015 08:05 | By robin bell
Is a term that is used and abused by the treaty trashing fraternity of .N.Z,INCLUDING YOU.That you don't recognise the need for the welfare of Maori in general is well documented. I repeat None of the so called privileges you list are Maori only, all are the extension of rights you are entitled to and receive. As Peter Dey has said many times, the govn't spends almost 100 billion a year,Maori receive LESS than their theoretical share. You will clearly never accept the RIGHT of Maori to be Maori, without your constant expressions of primal self doubt, best exemplified by your "need " to constantly identify with those you consider inferior.Not to mention the ridiculous name you go under. Robin Bell.
Positive discrimination is
Posted on 16-04-2015 13:57 | By robin bell
clearly a term the cap'n does not understand. The positive discrimination currently being awarded Maori is first and foremost a recognition that for generations Maori received negative discrimination. It is POSITIVE for all New Zealanders, there is no negative side to it. We are already seeing a rapid rise in the contributions Maori make, compared to just a few years ago. The cap'n and friends would reverse that, No chance. Robin Bell.
@ robin bell
Posted on 17-04-2015 09:42 | By Captain Sensible
I can not argue with someone who's MO is just deny, deny, deny, deny even when presented hard facts. To deny that list of racist privileges I included in a prior post makes me think you may be a member of the flat earth society. BTW, I am still waiting for ONE, just ONE, race based government imposed privilege that is not open to part-maori so racially favours non-maori. Just ONE.
Mitch Morgan
Posted on 20-04-2015 22:31 | By morganmail
If you honestly wish to know the true meaning of the Treaty then read Sir Apirana Ngata's "An explanation of the Treaty" published in 1923. On the other hand, if you want disinformation then swallow the "Maori wonderfulness" of Claudia Orange. Isn't she the one who displays the Treaty in Te Papa museum with the preamble hidden in the shadows so that tourists can't see it? You know - the bit that says Maori accept the Queen as their overall sovereign and themselves as subjects to her rule. Then again, there's no money in that.
Partial truth Mitch,
Posted on 22-04-2015 08:56 | By robin bell
Dame Claudia's book is perhaps the best researched book in recent times. Sir Apirana Ngata said many things in his life,many he later refuted. At the Treaty Centenary 1940 he said " I do not know of any year the Maori people have approached with so much misgiving. In retrospect what does the Maori see? Lands GONE,the power of the chiefs humbled. Maori culture scattered and broken. What remains of all the fine things said 100 yrs ago. So what remains for Maori to celebrate whole heartedely with the European at this centennial". Sound familiar Mitch. Robin Bell.
@ robin bell
Posted on 22-04-2015 12:05 | By Captain Sensible
Does Claudia Orange have some special power that can read the minds of dead people and thus claim that what was written in plain english, actually....meant something else? Her books are not even researched...they are just her biased opinions or her meal ticket...take your pick. By the way, have you managed to come up with ONE, race based government imposed privilege that is not open to part-maori so racially favours non-maori? I have been waiting for a few years now. Maybe you could ask Mrs Orange to "research" and invent one!
Destruction
Posted on 23-04-2015 03:39 | By Kenworthlogger
Captain you have totaly destroyed Robin on this one. He cant come up with one example of race based privilege not available to part maori.
Captain Sensible
Posted on 23-04-2015 10:44 | By YOGI BEAR
You can be assured that the factual information and science that Robin extolls at length will have been obtained on the basis of:- absolutely perfect for what ever Robin wans to say, will really be in the myth and legend category, will be purported to be truth and fact and verified, will have been tabled somehow to the Waitangi WFT Tribunal and called "fact" or "evidence" all behind closed doors. In the end the real truth is that it is all made up as go, when needed and as desired by Robin and also Peter in an instantaneous way.
Illustrated Treaty of Waitangi
Posted on 23-04-2015 10:46 | By YOGI BEAR
next I suppose Claudia will suddenly find a raft of photographic evidence to perfectly suit the Robin and Peter show?
morganmail
Posted on 23-04-2015 10:47 | By YOGI BEAR
Now isn't that the truth of it.
Now you see it, now you don't.
Posted on 23-04-2015 13:49 | By robin bell
My reply to cap'n "not so" appeared then disappeared, strange maybe friends in "high places". To address the cap'ns loaded question which pre supposes "privilege" for Maori.The best example is the classic loaded question, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" no matter the answer,yes or no the respondent admits to beating his wife. This type of entrapment pre supposes the answer, and therefore narrows the response to a a single answer and the fallacy is committed.In this case the supposition is that Maori have privilege,that non Maori do not. In actual fact the reverse is true. Example 1 Democracy should "mirror society". It does not do this. Maori still have to rely on the "goodwill" of representatives who have little or no interest in Maori affairs.An example of this "goodwill" is common in these columns.So much for democracy. Robin Bell.
@ robin bell
Posted on 23-04-2015 17:59 | By Captain Sensible
It's not a trick question Robin!!! Name ONE, just ONE race based government imposed privilege that is not open to maori so therefore racially favours non-maori. Just ONE. I have given you a dozen racist privileges that only benefit part-maori and so therefore racially discriminate against 85% of kiwis. You have claimed there are racist privileges for non-maori but not available to maori....and I have asked you to name one. It is that simple!!
Still waiting for that example Robin
Posted on 23-04-2015 18:13 | By Kenworthlogger
Dont need any other rubbish except the answer. Is it possible for you to stay on topic. Going by you track record it seems no.
Lol
Posted on 24-04-2015 04:42 | By Kenworthlogger
Robin just cant bring himself to admit you are right Capt.
Framed,
Posted on 24-04-2015 11:23 | By robin bell
The cap'n continues to "FRAME" the argument.He claims 170 race based privileges for Maori without detailing one.He accuses me of denialism because it carries the implication that he speaks the truth. He is wrong on both counts. His confusion arises from his obvious bias when evaluating "need" and how best to address it in a way that benefits all New Zealanders. None of his so-called privileges are restricted to Maori only. Co -governance is NOT Maori only. Wananga o Aotearoa is NOT Maori only Tga Moana medical care is not Maori only. Be specific cap'n,then we can resolve this argument. Robin Bell.
Captain Sensible
Posted on 24-04-2015 13:18 | By YOGI BEAR
85% of non part Maori, the more accurate number is nearer 7%, and realistically should be "ZERO" as not a single "part" Maori has more than 30-40% part Maori blood, in fact most will be between 0-20% so according to the UN part Maori no longer exist. That is a bit like Moriori but for a different reason
Kenworthlogger
Posted on 24-04-2015 13:24 | By YOGI BEAR
Please do allow for how things work here and with Robin and Peter, here's how it goes ... Robin/Peter state a "fact" (most likely scribed in Wellington) and copied here, when asked about the obvious floors in it there are no facts, evidence or verification available to independently conclude it is real (PS reference is made to the Waitangi Tribunal this/that .. but all in/out of there are myths and legends at best so worthless) they will avoid the question with anything else but the truth to the question asked. lastly if the pursuit continues then you will be labeled a racist or something similar, you don't understand part-Maori, you hate part Maori or some other completely irrelevant comment. In the end here there is not an answer that Robin/Peter can give you independently verifies what they have said. That's the case because it is all made up to su
denialism from Robin
Posted on 24-04-2015 13:28 | By YOGI BEAR
Sorry Robin a little reverse commentary does not take away the truth here, you have nothing factual to provide in answer to either Kenworthlogger or the Captain Sensible questions. Why can you not just answer is admit that you can not and so avoid all the personal diarrhea comments that are of no value at all.
Kenworthlogger
Posted on 24-04-2015 15:54 | By YOGI BEAR
No chance of that, dodge everything but the actual truth, replaced with myths and legends according to Wellington.
Framed, blamed flamed, claimed and lame
Posted on 24-04-2015 15:58 | By YOGI BEAR
Robin seeks to shunt the question aside and well knows the inconvenient answer to kenworthlogger's and the truthful and righteous Captain Sensible's points as made, Far be it from me to point out the obvious, Robin can not answer for fear of digger a bigger hole for himself. The longer the delay is saying the truth of it (been years already) the more the spin attempts multiply and become even more ridiculous.
A little edification for yogi bear,
Posted on 24-04-2015 16:27 | By robin bell
When a "question" is preceded by non factual commentary it simply becomes an exercise in futility. In that the cap'n has much to learn from yourself. The absolute bottom line is your privilege lies in being the majority. Well hidden,taken for granted,unrecognised and selfishly guarded. In the spirit of ANZAC Centenary perhaps a little of the Anzac myth of "giving a man (or woman) a FAIR GO would not go amiss, AND PIGS MIGHT FLY EH! yogi. Robin Bell.
Can i ask?
Posted on 24-04-2015 21:21 | By Blessed
What are the Race based privileges part maori get? i cant be bothered reading all comments but id like to receive the privileges... I pay my taxes and work hard and got that way on my own... Very proud to be part maori, part English, part Scottish, Might even be related to you.
Definition according to Robin?
Posted on 25-04-2015 13:31 | By YOGI BEAR
Of "non factual commentary". For Robin that means something, in fact anything that does not blindly with the parrotised diarrhea that Robin (and matey Peter) can magically transform to mean anything desired. Anyone raising the slightest hint of question is trashed for doing so. The new catch cry is "privilege lies in being the majority". But sadly the real meaning of this is "privilege lies in being the minority and PLEASE stop reminding me ... I am in complete denial"
Stop looking Blessed,
Posted on 26-04-2015 09:05 | By robin bell
They only exist in the minds of the cap'n and crew.One day (maybe) they will work it all out. Robin Bell.
Blessed
Posted on 26-04-2015 09:45 | By Kenworthlogger
You are a model citizen! If only everybody else was like you this country would be a much better place. Like you say you have done it on your own with your own hard work. Robin seem to think people like you are are handicapped in some sort of way so need a helping hand by way of what he calls positive discrimination. You have shown him you dont need discrimination of any sort. You should be proud of what you have achieved so far! We are all Kiwis. We should all be treated the same.
Kemworthlogger
Posted on 26-04-2015 12:40 | By robin bell
By all means have a crack at me,but please don't put words in my mouth.I have never said people like Blessed are handicapped,only people like you.You see "kenny" there is a need for help for those who for many reasons didn't get the choice or opportunity that Blessed obviously got. If you want to ignore that need that's your choice, mine is to offer help, knowing that in the long run everyone gains. You may work it out one day Kenny, but I doubt it. Robin Bell.
Kemworthlogger
Posted on 26-04-2015 12:41 | By robin bell
By all means have a crack at me,but please don't put words in my mouth.I have never said people like Blessed are handicapped,only people like you.You see "kenny" there is a need for help for those who for many reasons didn't get the choice or opportunity that Blessed obviously got. If you want to ignore that need that's your choice, mine is to offer help, knowing that in the long run everyone gains. You may work it out one day Kenny, but I doubt it. Robin Bell.
Kemworthlogger
Posted on 26-04-2015 12:41 | By robin bell
By all means have a crack at me,but please don't put words in my mouth.I have never said people like Blessed are handicapped,only people like you.You see "kenny" there is a need for help for those who for many reasons didn't get the choice or opportunity that Blessed obviously got. If you want to ignore that need that's your choice, mine is to offer help, knowing that in the long run everyone gains. You may work it out one day Kenny, but I doubt it. Robin Bell.
Blessed
Posted on 26-04-2015 14:27 | By YOGI BEAR
Couldn't agree more, with Kenworthlogger, if everyone contributed rather than sucking all the goodness out then NZ would be a lot better off for that, all would benefit equally and fairly as a result.
Blessed, just some examples ...
Posted on 26-04-2015 14:32 | By YOGI BEAR
Getting appointed to the WTF Tribunal in Wellington, being a lawyer attempting to create a fact from myth (just like Robin tries to do), get appointed to a IWI and pay thy self and mates millions for no apparent reason. Double the student tertiary allowance based of the colour of the skin, a quota of places available at university singularly based on the colour of skin (exam results totally irrelevant). Free health care at any age for anything. seats in parliament based on race and paid to be there. You will notice a pattern here, much relates to the few in IWI and their relatives and mates. These are but some of the rorts dumped on the NZ taxpayer and that means all of us all of the time are being sucked dry for the benefit of a privileged few. In essence this has all the look of apartheid.
Hmmm agree and disagree
Posted on 26-04-2015 22:26 | By Blessed
I have applied for a few Education grants in the past, but ALL had strict criteria to be accepted, Some you had to be Female of a certain age, Iwi ones you have to show your success/marks your 1st year of study, and as for student allowance, i was better off being on the DPB while i studied, which i ended up doing, it was new to me someone who worked all my life to end up on that... I chose to study to better myself, but see so many people give up becuase they have NO support at home, and No i dont get free medical care, but there are options at Polytech and Uni for ALL students, and thousands of grants available on the BreakOut site for different areas of study for people of all races and ability's, i shall b off to pay my Student loan.
Well robin
Posted on 27-04-2015 12:03 | By Kenworthlogger
I am no different to Blessed. I have worked hard and got somewhere. So why are we handicapped? And what have you done to help?
Update, Blessed, just some examples ...
Posted on 27-04-2015 12:32 | By YOGI BEAR
Education, examples: the student allowance is double by Maori Affairs, it is not something that they broadcast, but if you are "Part Maori" and that means even the slightest bit you are in. Teachers college has a mandatory part Maori quota, a minimum percentage of perhaps 20% some years part Maori enrolers. So what is happening here is that the there are two standards of achievement non Maori and part Maori. The latter standard has to be lower that the rest so as enough the "qualify" and can gain entry. The end result if this is that the best teachers are not being put in front of our kids. Result as has been happening in NZ education generally is that NZ education standards have been steadily dropping steadily compared to overseas.
study to better myself
Posted on 27-04-2015 13:59 | By YOGI BEAR
Blessed that is indeed admirable and certainly good to see, in fact that is he only way that part Maori will be able to move on and succeed in this world. The current means of leeching of all others in NZ and wanting superiority as to money, wealth and position by right rather than democracy will surely enlist a response. The more demanded the more likely the larger anti-reaction from the other 90-95% of the population. Perhaps you could convince Robin to "better himself" especially in the area of English, words, meaning, he has an uncanny ability to created absolutely everything from absolutely nothing.
Free medical care
Posted on 27-04-2015 14:43 | By YOGI BEAR
You just need to know where to look, the best places are Northland and the east cape areas, here NZ Health provide "free" everything, doctors and prescriptions. There are for example dotted around the place free Whanau medical centers, theres one in Te Puke for example. If you are of the correct colour, wander in there then you don't need a community card/Super card to get cheaper care, all you need is to be "part Maori" then everything is free. The only criteria is to be part Maori to be eligible, to be of any other culture (including the seven known to have been in NZ before Maori) then no chance of anything.
Parliment
Posted on 27-04-2015 14:50 | By YOGI BEAR
They have part Maori only seats that only part Maori can stand in and be elected, only part Maori can be on the electoral role. Funny thing (Robin will deny the actual NZ history here) is that these seats were to have been only a temporary thing for a decade in the late 1800's. But some how the still remain, the purpose then has long since past. The seats are privilege based on being part Maori, nothing more and nothing less, this is apartheid, to obtain privilege singularly because of ethnicity. Perhaps it would be fair to split all seats into race based seats e.g. Celts, Indian, Chinese, Moriori, Spanish, English, Vikings. Wouldn't that be fair? Then you have to choose which ethnic group you are part of and that then determines if you are at the top of the pile or a bottom feeder?
Parliment - part 2
Posted on 27-04-2015 14:54 | By YOGI BEAR
End result, where one group has provided itself with favours, privilege, preference and handouts and these are not justified then there will sooner or later be a backlash and consequence, it is obvious. The only way to avoid that is to adopt the same political stance as Mugabe in Zimbabwe. That is the track that RObin/Peter and co-conspirators are choosing to take and now starting to wander why the reactions from others.
No proof from Robin
Posted on 27-04-2015 15:01 | By YOGI BEAR
That these ethnic groups were not in NZ before part Maori: Celts, Indian, Chinese, Moriori, Spanish, English, Vikings. Robin will leap at this and say blah blah ... Janet Wilshurst blah blah ... However the facts about her have been well covered before on other blogs on this site. Janet sadly only had access to limited information, that was determined by her pay masters who wanted a report to self justify their own agendas. She was on a "no sign it, no pay" basis. In essence she was prohibited from looking at any fact, history, evidence, anything genuine and authentic independently verified that was contrary to the desired answer. The aim of the report was to state part Maori were in NZ first and when, anything contrary to that was either discredited or simply ignored.
@A. McKenzie-sucking the lemon
Posted on 27-04-2015 15:31 | By ROCCO
Read Orange on WTFW you must be joking of course. Had to check it wasn't an APRIL(ALL) FOOLS DAY)jest but once I confirmed it wasn't I just put it down to a Macs blond moment or a bad hair day.Oranges and Lemons the Bells of----- another nursery rhyme myth.
RBOP - councilors
Posted on 27-04-2015 15:36 | By YOGI BEAR
Also to add to the mix is the infiltration into Local Government, RBOP has adopted race based elections. The same issues prevail here also. At least they are voted in but via race-based criteria for being able to stand/vote. this is elitist/separatist activities, I can't see that it's stopping. Auckland only allowed is IWI members that are self appointed and all ratepayer paid for, no wonder Auckland is more in the financial doo-doo that almost any other Council. The move from RBOP to Auckland is the very much preferred option by the Treaty-gaters in Wellington. No need to stand, no one gets to vote them in, self-appointed for life and wham there is a job, overpaid salary and more for what? So what happened to "democracy" not even part-Maori get to vote for their own now? This is going from bad to worse fast.
No free Medical in Te Puke
Posted on 27-04-2015 16:55 | By Blessed
Where and who told you that?? and FYI pakeha are allowed in those medical centres too, but just so you know, they ALL, maori and Pakeha have to pay for their visits, i am aware everyone can have an account and medical is cheaper but it isnt FREE! Believe me if i can cut costs i will do it. I dont agree with what RDC has done, but as a 'part maori' im well aware of pre judgements some people make just because we are darker skinned,no matter if we can do the Job or not, there are ALOT of maori out there that work very hard, my entire family is like this, and sadly in my family, it was our Pakeha 'Parent' that left. We are no different to anyone else, You are either born into a STRONG family, or a weak 1. 1country, different worlds
Education standards? yogi
Posted on 27-04-2015 17:21 | By Blessed
You cant seriously be blaming maori teachers for that? Think about the type of people, teenagers growing up these days, its an ungrateful generation? but we have many high achievers here in the BOP, Why? because those are the children who know where they want to be, AND have wonderful parental support at home. Parliament is predominantly of other races, and how often do they listen to us NZ citizens?? Do you even have any 'part maori' friends? is this how you talk to them? making out are the cause of all NZs problems? I see the problems around us, and there is No quick fix, Environmentally we are in the crap, Education wise, Children need to be taught how to survive with nothing, and the consequences of having children, I for 1 am for some sort of programme like the old days where beneficiaries work for their Benefit.
Here is how it works
Posted on 27-04-2015 23:47 | By Fonzie
For the treaty scammers first you take a council that is for everyone equally then you divide off one ethnic group and call it inclusive To be inclusive you have to be divisive
All free Medical in Te Puke
Posted on 28-04-2015 09:35 | By YOGI BEAR
That is according to the GP's involved in the scheme in Te Puke.
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