Macrons looming over Otumoetai

The decision over whether Otumoetai will be spelt as Otūmoetai following the addition of macrons is awaiting ministerial approval from Land Information NZ minister Louise Upston.

Whether she will follow the Linz recommendation is unknown, and Linz media spokesman Andrew Bristol refuses to speculate, or say what the recommendation is.


The new look Otumoetai is awaiting ministerial approval.

'It is waiting for the Minister to make a decision,” says Andrew. 'In the past couple of weeks she's received some advice from us on that.”

Submissions on the proposal closed in June.

The Otumoetai macron issue arose through a proposed name change for Otumoetai Beach, says Wendy Shaw, Secretary to the New Zealand Geographic Board, Land Information New Zealand.

Discussion on the correct spelling for Otumoetai emerged from public consultation over the proposal to re-name the beach Stokes Beach, which was notified from November 14, 2013 to February 14, 2014, and also a public hui held in Tauranga on December 19, 2013.

As a result, the New Zealand Geographic Board has decided to ‘correct the spelling' of Otumoetai after 150 years, which it says is the current recorded, but not the official name.

The intention to change Otumoetai includes Otumoetai Suburb, Otumoetai Beach, Otumoetai Pa and the Otumoetai Channel. The board has naming jurisdiction over these types of places only.

If the macron is approved, signs, maps, charts and tourist publications that refer to the suburb and the other names will be required to use the correct spelling. The change will be gradual as the materials come up for renewal, updating and maintenance.

Organisations such as schools and businesses will not be required to use the macron if they do not wish to.

But the board is encouraging public agencies to adopt the correct spelling of any official name, including macrons, hyphens and duals in their materials as they come up for renewal.

There is no penalty involved for those that choose not to add the macron, says Wendy.

Macrons became an official part of the Maori language in 1987 when it became an official language of New Zealand with the passing of the Maori Language Act.

The agency responsible for the Act is The Maori Language Commission, Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori. The NZ Geographic Board Act of 2008 requires it to seek advice from the commission on the correct spelling of any Maori name.

Otumoetai means Stand of the Sleeping Tide.

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89 comments

Why?

Posted on 09-12-2014 08:42 | By monty1212

What a total waste of time and money!


Just more

Posted on 09-12-2014 08:45 | By The Caveman

PC Rubbish.


When...

Posted on 09-12-2014 09:12 | By penguin

...all Maori pronounce Maori names correctly, together with Anglo-Saxon and our numerous mixed cultural names, then there might be a case for insisting on things being PC. Until then, we continue down the road of racism.


PC Money waster

Posted on 09-12-2014 09:13 | By jimmyant

I am constantly amazed at how someone, probably on a well paid salary finds yet another PC way to waste tax payers money. Its a bit like Whanganui or Wanganui. For heavens sake, lets just go with the common usage/spelling that's been around for a long timer already. Put the money saved from these wasteful exercises into helping people who really are in need!!


Why

Posted on 09-12-2014 09:52 | By YOGI BEAR

Bother, what a waste of time, money and thinking even about it. Move on to more important things like interest rates, perhaps IWI could subsidise all kiwi's mortgage interest rates.


Wriiten

Posted on 09-12-2014 10:19 | By DAD

Maori didn't have a written language so how can they now say how to spell it! Just a stupid waste of money!


Macrons

Posted on 09-12-2014 11:16 | By scottamm

Over fifty years ago Merivale/Parkvale chose to be part of Tauranga and to this day we have no signage indicating where it is. Perhaps the money intended for making new Otumoetai signs could be used for for this instead.


Goldbug

Posted on 09-12-2014 12:12 | By eamann

I'm glad I'm not a Tauranga city ratepayer - first the plastic waka now macrons. How many of the New Zealand Geographic Board are Maori anyway ? What PC rubbish will they dream up next? Give the money to the lower decile schools in the area to improve reading skills.


Rastus

Posted on 09-12-2014 12:26 | By rastus

Just one more example of idiots. We pay to educate them to get a degree of some sort, then they are in a market place which has run out of real jobs so now we make em up as we go along - bureaucracy becoming larger and larger - but I suppose it keeps em off the street - what a load of hogwash!


Racial Division

Posted on 09-12-2014 12:26 | By Bill Gibson-Patmore

All of this alleged nonsense dictate, by various committees outside of our city are doing absolutely nothing to lessen the Racial Divide that is ripping apart the solid social structure that New Zealanders (of all historic races) have been so proud of for so long! . Most folk will realise that I never speak on Racial matters, however, on this occasion I feel bound to! . Inserting a macaroon (sic) into various pieces of signage, maps, and documentation, does not seem to me to be satisfying the needs of the majority. It's confusing, it' will be extremely expensive, and it's going to remain constantly devisive! . I certainly hope that the Board not NOT recommend going ahead with the idea. And..... Then I hope that the matter is LEFT ALONE by all citizens of our fine city. . I hope and pray...(I'll also ask Santa Claus). Bill Gibson-Patmore


How?

Posted on 09-12-2014 12:47 | By cptn scully

Can you ask the Land Minister how I am going to type a macron when my keyboard does not have one! What a waste of time and money.


Ministerial Approval?

Posted on 09-12-2014 12:59 | By The Sage

What a crock and what a total waste of time, money and resources.It's a wonder local Council hasn't instructed Priority One to do one of their famous surveys on it, to waste even more money.


What a load of Rubbish

Posted on 09-12-2014 13:13 | By Ridiculousness

What a total load of rubbish, more PC crap wasting our time and money.


I got another idea

Posted on 09-12-2014 13:47 | By Ross01

if somebody wants to waste a heap of money over new signs; why not rename Otu..watsit as Cherrywood .Residents of a large proportion of the affected zone live in the Cherrywood area (and it's easier to spell too )


pronunciation

Posted on 09-12-2014 14:39 | By Calm Gully

How does the macron change the pronunciation? Oh too moh e ta e (we say tie, does that need a macron???) Nobody pronounces words correctly - Tauranga and powhari for instance are said so many different ways - will Otumoetai change? What a waste of time and money. It can't be Maori pushing this 'cause it is not a written language. It raises lots of questions like who is pushing for this rot????? Who is paying???


JOKE

Posted on 09-12-2014 15:01 | By peecee09

Just tell the Geographic Board to go away a macron indeed. What arrant nonsense and stirring, this is not Wanganui.


French accents. German umlauts

Posted on 09-12-2014 15:44 | By waxing

Do I assume that all your correspondents also seek the accents to be removed from French and the umlauts from German?


more fantasy

Posted on 09-12-2014 15:56 | By Major Think

This is as make-it-up-as-you-go as the maori pronunciation of "Tauriko" which began life as an abbreviation for Tauranga Rimu Company (TAURICO) and got hi-jacked by the PC fools claiming it should be spelt with a 'c', not a 'k' and had cultural significance.


HEY

Posted on 09-12-2014 16:20 | By Ross01

I just discovered that my computer doesn't have provision to type macrons. Would the idiot powers that be who want to introduce them please confirm that they are willing to pay to have all keyboards altered to accommodate their rubbish idea?


Macrons

Posted on 09-12-2014 16:42 | By Kevin Mooney

Macron use is now awaiting Ministerial approval! Macrons are delicious served with whipped cream, especially the chocolate ones. The Minister should try some before making a decision. However, putting them om street signs would be a complete waste of time. The birds would eat them in no time!


Macrons are easy

Posted on 09-12-2014 18:47 | By toby

On Word, go to insert, symbol, then use a Latin option, find the letter eg ?. If you need, create a short cut.


What happens if...

Posted on 10-12-2014 12:04 | By morepork

...the people concerned refuse to implement the changes? Suppose every one of us says: "This is nonsense and I won't be part of it?" I DO know how to put macrons on things, even though they are not on my keyboard, but that doesn't mean I will do it... (I have no intention of so doing.)


@Morepork

Posted on 10-12-2014 13:57 | By waxing

Did you do French or German at school? Did you refuse to use accents or umlauts with those languages? Or is this something you reserve solely for the Maori language? And do I assume that you pronounce Maori perfectly without the need for any macrons?


@toby

Posted on 11-12-2014 11:42 | By penguin

Even easier is to ignore the whole issue and carry on with life as 'normal.'


@penguin

Posted on 11-12-2014 12:37 | By waxing

I assume then your "normal" includes being totally happy if people continually mispronounce your name and those of your family?


@waxing

Posted on 11-12-2014 14:44 | By penguin

Many are the times that my names are mispronounced but I do not get all hot and bothered about it. A gentle and polite correction usually does the trick. By the way, this matter is about little marks over letters, not pronunciation of words. Incidentally, I am of second generation German heritage!


@penguin

Posted on 11-12-2014 17:37 | By waxing

Then I respectfully suggest you do some research as macrons in Maori are as much about pronunciation as umlauts are in the German you know and as accents are in the French you may know. Why do you only criticise Maori?


Regettably

Posted on 12-12-2014 09:18 | By YOGI BEAR

The whole thread here is a waste of time, the future of Maori is limited, there is no written language until the settlors arrived and for some reason wanted to write it all down for Maori. As the population base is to small in a 100 years all of this will be meaningless discussion anyway.


@waxing

Posted on 12-12-2014 10:53 | By penguin

If you do some research yourself you will see that macrons in Maori words have only been used for a relatively short time, historically speaking. In contrast, acute accents and umlauts have been in use for centuries. Therefore, it can be argued that they have greater historical significance than macrons in the Maori language.


@penguin

Posted on 12-12-2014 12:03 | By waxing

You are correct in that they were introduced to assist in the correct pronunciation of Maori, which had historically not been a written language. So do I take it that you now accept they are to assist in correct pronunciation, (as umlauts are in German and accents are in French) but that your dismal of them is that you consider them to be of less historical significance? Since New Zealand is a relatively young country, do you dismiss it in the same way, despite your family's immigration here? Or are you simply trying to impose your own values on us?


@waxing

Posted on 12-12-2014 15:04 | By penguin

Take whatever you will from my comments. But methinks you need to do a little more research as to where/when macrons could be used or not with regard to Maori names etc. There is an amount of licence in their use. Macrons are here and I have never denied their use. Rather, as others have noted, the cost of changing signage, together with other attendant amendments, is a significant cost for something that is not, of itself, necessary. Therefore, I rest my case, no matter your interpretation of anything I have said.


@penguin

Posted on 12-12-2014 17:48 | By waxing

I'm happy for people to see your comments for what they are. Just as I am happy living in Otumoetai to see macrons used properly and appropriately to ensure people start to pronounce it properly. The Maori Language Commission has a clear and very useful guide to macrons and the pronunciation they indicate: "all macronised vowels are pronounced LONG". I remain sorry that you are not interested in helping to ensure correct pronunciation of Maori.


@waxing

Posted on 13-12-2014 10:05 | By penguin

I am indebted to you for your expression of empathy. But your cynicism and inaccuracy regarding me ..."not being interested in helping to ensure correct pronunciation of Maori,” does you no justice whatsoever. For the record, I have had associations with Otumoetai for years and have always pronounced the name correctly, with or without macrons.


@waxing

Posted on 13-12-2014 14:27 | By morepork

Having lived in both Germany and France for a number of years, and being fluent in both languages, of course I use the correct decorations when typing or writing in them. But you seem to have missed the fact that German allows the alternative spellings to replace the umlaut for foreign keyboards, so, for example: Dusseldorf can be: Duesseldorf, and both are quite correct. Also, I don't know of any German or French people who would be offended by a foreigner NOT adding the correct embellishments. As for Maori, I was taught to pronounce it properly by an elderly Maori friend when I was quite young. (The vowel sounds in German and Maori are the same.) I was born and raised in NZ; my first love is English, but I don't feel offended when others mis-use it. People were writing Maori for many years before diacritical marks were introduced.


@waxing, again...

Posted on 13-12-2014 14:42 | By morepork

The macron in Otumoetai is actually redundant because you physically struggle to pronounce the u as short (it follows a t); it HAS to be pronounced long. (Try it for yourself...) Penguin has covered the bases as far as the mechanics of changing all the signage and it is a persuasive case. However, the REAL issue here is not a real or imagined "insult" to Maori, it is that we HAVE to do it if someone we didn't elect says we have to. I have no problem with others using the macron if it suits them, but I don't want to do so because I think the whole business is just expensive nonsense. And don't wave other languages at me; I already told you, they are grown up in Europe and realise that it is not an issue worth fighting about. I won't be using it.


@morepork

Posted on 13-12-2014 17:34 | By waxing

I am pleased to hear you use umlauts and accents. A FREE programme is available for your keyboard to enable you to do the same with macrons for Maori. As someone who has spoken German and French, I have been regularly helped when in either country to pronounce the languages correctly. All the public signage etc I saw, used both umlauts and accents. I'm delighted to hear you pronounce Maori correctly. Most don't and hence why macrons were introduced to help people do so. I am a resident of Otumoetai and contrary to your claims re the u having to be pronounced long, I find people pronounce an "ah" rather than a long u. Schools in the area do the same, pronouncing the word overall as: Ohtahmotie


waxing, your scholarship is marvellous

Posted on 15-12-2014 08:35 | By Peter Dey

It is an absolute delight to read the contributions by waxing. Far too many of the comments here seem to come from people who do not understand the reasons for change, but who resent any change that the Maori community wants or suggests.


Macrons everywhere would be a massive change

Posted on 15-12-2014 09:07 | By Peter Dey

Maori dictionaries use and have used macrons for a very long time. The first Williams dictionary was published in 1844. It would be an amazing step forward in our race relations if non-Maori understood that macrons have always been a part of the written Maori language, and have never caused a problem at all for those writing the language. However any change will be massive because many names; Omokoroa, Omanu, Motiti would have a macron. Strangely the tu part of Otumoetai has no meaning without the macron, so the macron is superfluous to the meaning and pronunciation.


Pakeha grievers should butt out

Posted on 15-12-2014 10:32 | By Peter Dey

Anti-Maori writers who seem to automatically object to anything that Maori want to do should butt out. They embarrass themselves with their one-eyed obsession. There are two quite genuine sides to this issue, and knee-jerk opposition is not one of them.


So early Maori adapted the written language

Posted on 15-12-2014 11:29 | By Murray.Guy

So a few Maori adapted the written language of the British in an effort to convey their own ... correct? Hello, what am I missing here? Ever noticed how one or two become very sensitive, precious when 'things Maori' are alleged to have been adapted, amended, used by non-maori? Think we're missing a big chunk of mutual respect in our society, a big chunk of 'whats good for the goose is good for the gander'!


Whose the goose?

Posted on 15-12-2014 15:59 | By robin bell

macrons were introduced into the English language from French via Latin via Greek into Maori via English.


Tinkerbell & Deydream

Posted on 15-12-2014 19:49 | By ROCCO

I am not sure the macron should be inserted horizontally shouldn't it be inserted vertically. I think you will find that solution under the up key (^)on the computer. You might find that a less painful exercise a bit akin to the Hawaiian salute(siuya) you might say.


Dear Robin

Posted on 15-12-2014 19:55 | By YOGI BEAR

The Macron, how is it Maori then? Are you suggesting that the Maori language is evolving into English, its creators?


I am Pro Maori

Posted on 15-12-2014 20:34 | By YOGI BEAR

But what I see and read around this website is not real Maori culture, it is something else, looks like apartheid with a feeble attempt at hiding it such as 'culture' or something else like but it is not. I have heard a saying before: if it smells like a dog, looks like a dog, eats like a dog then well it is "A dog". That my friends is what we have here now.


YOGI BEAR, Pakeha griever not pro-Maori

Posted on 16-12-2014 10:13 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR is a Pakeha griever looking back to the past when Governments safely ignored injustice to Maori. We have made enormous progress over the past 50 years. Yogi Bear cannot write continual anti-Maori comments and then credibly claim to be pro-Maori.


YOGI BEAR denies pro-Maori facts

Posted on 16-12-2014 13:46 | By Peter Dey

YOGI BEAR has been provided with factual information that presents Maori in a good light and yet he has denied the facts provided, without any credible justification. That is not pro-Maori.


Hey! Peter,

Posted on 16-12-2014 16:20 | By robin bell

please don't be too harsh on poor old yogi. I've just found out he's got a bad case of 'mould' on the brain. Probably hanging around the council offices too much. I think what he meant to say is that he is PRE Maori,not pro Maori. He's been banging on about it for years. Mould and N.P.D. just don't mix,do they. Robin Bell.


Maori Facts?

Posted on 16-12-2014 17:12 | By YOGI BEAR

Peter, remind me again which Maori myth they all came from? PS don't say the Wantangi Tribunal, that is not just a myth but a multi-myth.


Maori lover

Posted on 16-12-2014 17:14 | By YOGI BEAR

Despite the minority radicals about the place who are not even Maori, have no clues but profess all, isn't is just grand .... well no a grand would have been cheap, mega millions ripped off would be nearer the truth.


Sign macrons already

Posted on 16-12-2014 17:15 | By YOGI BEAR

They are the vertical and horizontal bits with the pointe ends on them, you know Peter/Robin, the bits that show where you are to go ....


Racisum

Posted on 17-12-2014 15:31 | By YOGI BEAR

That only happens when Peter and Robin run out of BS and the called up factors mean there is nothing else left to say but. The reasons are obvious about why.


SCUM

Posted on 17-12-2014 21:48 | By crazyhorse

Voted in by the Tauranga "rate payers" promises made, hmmm, non like this, separatism, apartheid,= resign, you came in under false pretense, I'm sure you can get a job on some "racist" unelected board that keep springing up all over NZ!.


Why not...

Posted on 18-12-2014 01:56 | By GreertonBoy

Just get that graffiti dude to go around and add the macrons.... might save a few million$ instead of replacing all the signs....


Mac Ron Old

Posted on 19-12-2014 15:12 | By YOGI BEAR

Just realised the fascination that Robin and Peter have here with "Macrons". It should read as "Maccers Ronald McD" so MacRon is an abbreviation for the loved fooder food. Wondered why thre was a growing obsession with MacRon's.


GAWD YOGI!!

Posted on 20-12-2014 01:33 | By crazyhorse

Don't say that we will have to fork out for free "macca's on top of everything else, it will be in the treaty you know that don't you "ARTICLE 20322", hush your mouth, "kFC" next. lol!.


Crazy Stead

Posted on 21-12-2014 22:57 | By YOGI BEAR

Yeah I can see yet another crazed Waitangi Treaty claim here. If they are not "given" it they will surely claim that it is racist ... Oh when does it end ... Oh PLEASEEEEEEE Peter bring back another batch of myths that we can all hear again ... oh that's right that change every time they are recited ... oh well tell us anyway Peter.


Maori dictionary?

Posted on 21-12-2014 23:15 | By YOGI BEAR

Is that right? Is that the dictionary written by non-Maori, and printed by non-Maori ... hmmmm sounds all a bit suspicious to me. So when did the that dictionary get created perhaps just a 150 years ago, wonder how close it looks to the genuine thing then compared to now? But like the treaty claims? I think more time was spent looking into heads rather than books.


Correct spelling &

Posted on 01-01-2015 22:27 | By crazyhorse

It's amusing all the hoopla about a macron when the maori language like every thing else maori evolves and changes as it go's along, lets take the word "Taonga"original meaning yes in the "maori dictionary" and all others!. "property procured by spear", but along comes Sir Hugh Kawharu, a part maori academic a member of the Waitangi tribunal, and campers, a "claimant",talk about conflict of interest, he, as in himself, with out any argument from anyone, especially the Gov't, changed the meaning to "treasure" guess what the Waitangi tribunal has based all it's rulings on,yes, that meaning, a very shrewd "lie"told to "trough" on for ever, treasure can mean anything, wind, air, water, radio waves, pipi shell on 'OUR" beach, hole in a rock.the racially operated Waitangi tribunal has to much to lose to tell the 'truth", as have the law firms involved,just as Geoffery Palmer always intended!.


ALLWAYS REMEMBER

Posted on 03-01-2015 20:56 | By crazyhorse

It should always be remembered that the Lange government - advised by "HONEST "JEFF"PALMER - started this crap when they extended the Waitangi Tribunal's jurisdiction back to 1840 …Contemporary generations of Maori who've had nothing taken from them will continue demanding that free stuff be given to them. And my generation, who've NEVER taken ANYTHING from anybody, will continue to pay a generation who've NEVER had ANYTHING taken from them, This will never end, "treaty troughers"have too much to gain from perpetuating racial hatred to let it all slip away.


Crazy Horse

Posted on 04-01-2015 03:08 | By YOGI BEAR

Yes indeed now that is correct x2 and some!


Wrong crazyhorse

Posted on 05-01-2015 11:00 | By Peter Dey

lThe Williams dictionary in 1854 had taonga meaning treasure and quoting haka as an example. So the claim that taonga means only things taken by the spear is wrong. Also the financial benefits from confiscated land went in to Government coffers and present taxpayers have been enjoying that benefit ever since. So present taxpayers have been and still are benefitting at the expense of the descendants of those who had land confiscated.


How to turn a macron,

Posted on 05-01-2015 11:16 | By robin bell

into a denialist rant,by crazy-hoss. All land owned is a treasure,either by ownership or sale. Whether gained by the spear or the gun or by theft,it remains a treasure. For crazy-horse and his lap dog yogi-bore to claim they and all of us are not beneficiaries of land theft is the ultimate DENIAL. Robin Bell.


What land theft?

Posted on 05-01-2015 16:41 | By YOGI BEAR

perhaps a bit more productive to have a look at the destruction of the multiculturalism that was NZ and the attempts of a few race based radicals trying to create a Maori dictatorship that all others pay for the privilege of being here, not likely. As my ancestors were here before Maori by thousands of years then if there is to be privilege then it should be for my culture as Maori verifying themselves by default instantly verifies mine. A simple case of "now you see it now you don't".


Posted on 05-01-2015 16:57 | By crazyhorse

Kawharu widened the meaning of the word "taonga" away from the 1840 dictionary meaning of "property obtained at the point of a spear", to "all dimensions of a tribal group's estate, material and non-material - heirlooms and wahi tapu (sacred places), ancestral lore and whakapapa (genealogies)".4 Kawharu's focus on the meaning of the treaty as he thought was understood by chiefs in 1840 shifts the mention of 'protection” in the preamble from including settlers and Maori, to applying only to Maori.5 The reinterpreted treaty dramatically widened the scope for compensation. Every claimant could therefore be compensated for not being permitted to carry on exercising their chieftainship even though it was clear from the debate on February 5, 1840, that chiefs understood that they would be accepting the rule of the governor and the Queen of England. The widened definition of the word 'taonga” enables claims for anything!!!.


Sir Apirana Ngata.

Posted on 05-01-2015 16:59 | By crazyhorse

This blatant try-on would no doubt astonish Sir Apirana Ngata. In his 1922 explanation of the Treaty, Ngata described 'taonga” as applying to 'this canoe, that taiaha, that kumara pit, that cultivation.” Not once did he hint that taonga included intangibles as claimed by recent racial opportunists. Ngata was well-fluent in the Maori language and his explanation was consistent with Kendall and Lee's 1820 vocabulary, the Williams 1844 dictionary, and Frederick Maning's account of old New Zealand. Had the revisionists checked these, they would have learnt that 'taonga” meant goods, property, things, chattels, or in legal terms 'personalty” [personal property]. F.E.(Frederick) Maning settled in Northland in 1833. He had four children to the sister of a chief and later became a Judge of the Native Land Court. In his much published account Old New Zealand Maning translates 'taonga” as 'Goods, property!.


Sir Apirana Ngata.

Posted on 05-01-2015 17:03 | By crazyhorse

This blatant try-on would no doubt astonish Sir Apirana Ngata. In his 1922 explanation of the Treaty, Ngata described 'taonga” as applying to 'this canoe, that taiaha, that kumara pit, that cultivation.” Not once did he hint that taonga included intangibles as claimed by recent racial opportunists. Ngata was well-fluent in the Maori language and his explanation was consistent with Kendall and Lee's 1820 vocabulary, the Williams 1844 dictionary, and Frederick Maning's account of old New Zealand. Had the revisionists checked these, they would have learnt that 'taonga” meant goods, property, things, chattels, or in legal terms 'personalty” [personal property]. F.E.(Frederick) Maning settled in Northland in 1833. He had four children to the sister of a chief and later became a Judge of the Native Land Court. In his much published account Old New Zealand Maning translates 'taonga” as 'Goods, property!.


Satisfied sovereignty ceded

Posted on 05-01-2015 17:18 | By crazyhorse

To speak of the Waitangi Tribunal's agenda is no exaggeration. It's now a grandly-titled taxpayer-funded Maori lobby group, whose continued existence is increasingly perilous to the country and indefensible on any rational grounds. It has, gradually "morphed" into its role. When it began in 1975 ~ even in 1985, when its jurisdiction was backdated to 1840 ~ the agreed understanding of everyone, descendants of Maori and settler alike, was of far more modest Maori grievances than a claim that they were robbed of sovereignty. No Maori at the time would have claimed such a robbery. Indeed, the "Tribunal accepted!", in the Muriwhenua Fishing Report, for example, that ‘WE ARE SATISFIED THAT SOVEREIGNTY WAS"! CEDED And indeed for the Tribunal to discover that the Crown did not have sovereignty would be to (deny the authority of the Tribunal itself, which is derived from that very sovereignty), SEE CAMPERS MORE LIES CORRUPTION.......


Yogi-mun,

Posted on 05-01-2015 17:37 | By robin bell

should name his ancestors he claims pre-date Maori. Just a little hint would suffice. C'MON yogi, no more procrastinating name them. Gees'I hope it's not them bloody Celts again. Robin Bell.


Wrong again crazyhorse

Posted on 05-01-2015 17:42 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse can read the 1844 Williams dictionary in the Tauranga library. He will read that taonga meaning treasured possession can include haka as an example. Quoting Apirana Ngata proves nothing. He was an expert but obviously did not have infinite knowledge.


Wrong again

Posted on 05-01-2015 23:40 | By crazyhorse

"One" example as in the "one" you have given does not make it truth, you have used more or less this excuse many times to fob the "truth" off. This is what you see as fair and just,Kawharu was on the Waitangi tribunal and also a "claimant" he rewrote the translation of Taonga to mean what would benefit the "cause". This is suppose to be an important document to all NZER'S wouldn't you think it would have been talked about, researched, but no, 1 man in the tribunal and a "claimant" changes a document that completely changes the meaning of the treaty. Also Kawharu's focus on the meaning of the treaty as he thought was understood by chiefs in 1840 shifts the mention of 'protection” in the preamble from including settlers and Maori, to applying only to Maori. Strange how nothing was said publicly at the time, wonder why??.


TREATY TROUGHERS!

Posted on 05-01-2015 23:43 | By crazyhorse

In every sound bite, treaty trougher history "alteration" press release or tribal meeting, the claim will be repeated, using the basic principle of the Nazi propaganda machine, that a lie repeated often enough becomes the new truth.


Property Gained,

Posted on 06-01-2015 10:24 | By robin bell

at the point of a spear,is plain and simple, TREASURE.All POSSESSIONS, however "gained" are Treasure.How simple is that? Alas too difficult for crazy-hoss To understand. So old hoss,a possession is anything one has control of. Remember the Treaty,very important. Robin Bell.


A pointee spear?

Posted on 06-01-2015 13:27 | By YOGI BEAR

So a musket would be the same, the red coats (with a lot of help from some sensible local Maori) dealt to the Gate Pa mob, according to Maori custom that land now belongs tot eh victor, right? Result here, no entitlement for any previous owner(s), is that what you are saying Robin? If not that my ancestors were here in NZ before Maori so I win either way.


Right of the spear?

Posted on 06-01-2015 15:32 | By YOGI BEAR

So as Maori lost the Maori wars, that included spears, so Maori lose again.


No declaration of war,

Posted on 06-01-2015 16:03 | By robin bell

yogi bore. Your red coated ancestors,were in breach of both the treaty AND common decency.The Queen has apologised for that atrocity,so has the N.Z.government,compensation payed. We can play this silly game,as long as you wish, I do note however,you have STILL not given details of your pre-Maori ancestors. What are you waiting for? Let me guess,Till people forget the stupid things you say. Am I right yogi? Robin Bell.


PROPERTY TO

Posted on 06-01-2015 16:34 | By crazyhorse

Just so we know we have got this right Bell me old "mate", a Waitangi tribunal "member" who is also a "claimant"changes the TOW around so now Taonga means "treasure"now this can mean anything and everything! before it was simply what a person or people owned "as in property "WHERE ELSE COULD THIS HAPPEN" . Kawharu was judge, jury, claimant, and court researcher,brilliant excellent, thanks for clearing that up for us, while your at it can you also explain his other, "little change "Also Kawharu's focus on the meaning of the treaty as he thought was understood by chiefs in 1840 shifts the mention of 'protection” in the preamble from including settlers and Maori, to applying only to Maori, the only thing missing from the good old days is female infanticide and Cannibalism, bet your counting down the days eh!.


property Gained?

Posted on 06-01-2015 16:39 | By YOGI BEAR

Maori did not even have a idea or concept of "property" or ownership, what a load of cobblers that all is. Like Janet you need a complete redraft.


Declaration of war?

Posted on 06-01-2015 17:35 | By YOGI BEAR

Was not needed, Maori broke the terms of the treaty and were warned repeatedly of what would happen. Your verbage previously made no such "declaration of war" references that Maori made that was your feeble attempt to justify land claims by way of the point of a spear. It again looks like you have fallen on your sword ... ops I mean spear ... ops I mean pointy stick ... Maori had not got past the bone age so bronze, steel and so on are all out of the question here right.


Spear v stick

Posted on 06-01-2015 17:41 | By YOGI BEAR

Just to clarify here, Maori had no idea what steel of Bronze was, so weapons such as the rest of the world had refine thousands of years earlier means at best Maori were in an advanced stages of the "Bone Age". Some might argue that they had made it to the "Stone age" but that at best would put Maori a few thousand years before Stonehenge. Anyway, at that time the real indigenous ancestors of the islanders (who were dropped off in NZ) were all pacific Islanders not Maori at all. So back to subject, for a real spear you need a metal tip and the know how on that did not exist in NZ when Maori arrived. that knowledge only became aware to Maori when a bit of trading happened in the 1800's or so.


crazyhorse, Hugh Kawharu changed nothing

Posted on 06-01-2015 18:34 | By Peter Dey

Hugh Kawharu simply informed people of the wider meaning of the word taonga. The wider meaning 'treasure' was already available with haka as an example in the 1844 Williams dictionary available in the Tauranga City library. The discredited claim that taonga had a very narrow meaning is no longer sustainable. Read the Williams dictionary current version. It has the same explanation of taonga that Hugh Kawharu used.


BUSINESS AS USUAL!

Posted on 06-01-2015 22:32 | By crazyhorse

A book by Dr John Robinson, 'The Corruption of New Zealand Democracy puts to right his astonishing revelation that as a Waitangi Tribunal researcher he had to falsify evidence to get paid. Hired to study Maori depopulation from 1850-1900, he found the main cause was a chronic shortage of potential parents. The inter-tribal holocaust of the 1820s and 1830s had extinguished up to forty percent of the race, and it was ""customary practice to kill newborn girls"". This was not what Dr Robinson's state masters wanted to hear. They ‘encouraged' him to blame the decline on the ‘catastrophic' effects of Maori land loss. And so, against all the evidence, he did. He exposes the corruption within the Waitangi Tribunal to write reports to allow claims to proceed. Victoria University historian Dr Giselle Byrnes also lays damning charges against the tribunal, backing up Robinson!.


Spear v's Stick - part 2

Posted on 07-01-2015 09:56 | By YOGI BEAR

Even in the 1800's Maori still had no idea of how to make, create or manufacture anything metal based. This about sums up the status of a people who had degraded from well presented and able bodied pacific Islanders to become Maori that wee hopelessly unable to cope with the new found NZ environment. In fact Maori would have disappeared in NZ when they were dropped off if it were not for the capable people and cultures already here that would able to assist Maori to be to survive.


crazyhorse, the Treaty protects only Maori

Posted on 07-01-2015 10:49 | By Peter Dey

Treaty preamble: HER MAJESTY VICTORIA Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland regarding with Her Royal Favour the Native Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and anxious to protect their just Rights and Property and to secure to them the enjoyment of Peace and Good Order has deemed it necessary in consequence of the great number of Her Majesty's Subjects who have already settled in New Zealand and the rapid extension of Emigration both from Europe and Australia which is still in progress to constitute and appoint a functionary properly authorized to treat with the Aborigines of New Zealand..There is no mention of Pakeha in the Treaty.


YOGI BEAR trumped again

Posted on 07-01-2015 12:20 | By Peter Dey

Sorry YOGI BEAR, Janet trumps you again. Her scientific evidence shows no existence of anybody living in New Zealand before Maori arrived about 1250AD. Stories of people living here before Maori arrived have to be imaginary because they left no evidence behind. Scientists deal in facts. They do not make things up because all their evidence can be checked and if they make things up they just get proved wrong, so they do not do it.


crazyhorse, half truth as usual

Posted on 07-01-2015 12:33 | By Peter Dey

crazyhorse presents John Robinson's side of his story, but nobody has ever presented the other side of the story. Nobody told John Robinson to falsify his report. He was probably told that his research was part of the truth, and he wanted to make it the whole truth. Giselle Byrnes is a historian. The Waitangi Tribunal had the difficult task of trying to redress wrong in a practical way so that we can move forward in greater harmony. If it had tried to write history to suit academic historians it would have taken forever and cost more billions of dollars, and then crazyhorse would have complained about that.


Dr.John Robinson,

Posted on 07-01-2015 15:07 | By robin bell

extreme (by his own admission) right wing blogger and contributor to many anti Maori publications. Mathematician,end of story.The holocaust caused by the introduction of firearms and exotic diseases, caused the decline of Maori numbers.NOT the practice of female infanticide. More blatant untruth from the extreme right blogger,crazy horse. Robin Bell.


Treaty protects only Maori?

Posted on 07-01-2015 16:43 | By YOGI BEAR

Actually Robby, this time you are right, the Treaty does protect Maori. What you have not noted is who from. The answer is recorded for all time, Maori wanted protection from Maori. At best you might stretch that to perhaps also refer to the French, they were sniffing around also. Your Treaty reference has again been stretched to the same category as Janet's scripted (for her by her pay masters) ramblings that are best described by Peter when he referred to the truth about Maori myths. The treaty only provided that the part Maori immigrants were to be covered by the same laws as the settlors (the culturally indigenous peoples of New Zealand


Justice Durie

Posted on 07-01-2015 19:24 | By crazyhorse

Some Treaty of Waitangi claimants asked researchers to change findings that would be unhelpful to their cases, said the Chairman of the Waitangi Tribunal, Chief Judge Eddie Durie. Justice Durie also said that some tribes had even tried to make the payments of researchers conditional on findings being altered in their favour. Justice Durie himself has come under suspicion at times!.


Treaty protects only Maori?

Posted on 08-01-2015 01:32 | By YOGI BEAR

What a load of cobblers that is, the reality is that Maori wanted desperately the assistance of our Queen Victoria to save them from themselves, this is clearly show in the desperate attempts of Maori to avoid a massacre by their own felloe Maori. What else do we need to koow.


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