Couple blow $20K of Treaty money

Two marae trustees have admitted stealing large sums of Treaty cash and blowing some of it at casinos – but no-one has told police.

Janice and Carlo Harrison admit misappropriating money from a marae trust account, spending some of it in casinos, bars and fast food restaurants. Photo: Mark Taylor/Fairfax NZ.

Carlo and Janice Harrison misappropriated at least $20,000 from bank accounts belonging to the Waimapu Marae in Tauranga and, according to a Maori Land Court judge, far more money could have been taken.

The couple have admitted spending the money, meant for marae renovations, at SkyCity Casino in Auckland, Riverside Casino in Hamilton and bars around Tauranga.

There is also evidence of spending at service stations, KFC, Pizza Hut, cafes and department stores.

The bank accounts involved had about $109,000 in them, but most of that is gone.

Trustee Lance Waaka, who blew the whistle on the Harrisons, said there was only about $400 left in the accounts.

The Harrisons, both 63 and sickness beneficiaries, said about $50,000 was spent removing dozens of large trees from the marae grounds and building new fences.

They admitted they had also given money to whanau members who hadn't paid it back.

The judge, Stephen Clark, said in a judgment that as well as 44 Eftpos withdrawals at casinos, pubs and bars which the Harrisons had admitted, there were a number of other withdrawals warranting further investigation.

Describing it as a "pattern of criminal offending", the judge said a proper forensic inquiry was needed to ascertain the true level of the theft, and that inquiry was best carried out by police.

But Waaka said he was unsure if he would lay a complaint, as the Harrisons had already been humiliated. "Some of the whanau want to take it all the way," he said. "It's not right what they done, but say we took it to police, what happens? They just get a bad record and might do PD or whatever."

Carlo Harrison, who described himself as a born-again Christian, said he was prepared to take whatever punishment came to him.

"I said to the judge, I'm prepared ... to go to jail and pay whatever is owed, for the wrong that's been done."

Inspector Clifford Paxton, area commander for Western Bay of Plenty police, said police would wait for any formal complaint before investigating.

The money was from Ngati Ranginui's Treaty settlement, which came in 2012 after almost 20 years of negotiations. The Ngati Ruahine hapu, associated with the Waimapu Marae, received cash and land worth about $2 million.

Judge Clark ordered that the Harrisons, who have 17 grandchildren and 10 great-grandchildren, be removed as trustees and as signatories of the bank accounts, and ordered that they pay back $20,670 to the marae.

He also removed their niece, Erena Ririnui, as a trustee, noting she had failed to act when warned about the irregular expenditure and went on co-signing cheques for her aunt.

The judge said the Treaty claims related to land confiscations in the 19th Century and were hard fought. "It must be galling to right-thinking Ngati Ruahine beneficiaries that so soon after receiving Treaty settlement money ... two persons misappropriated some of it. Their conduct was appalling, they have offered no excuse for their offending."

The Harrisons, who live next to the marae, say they will pay the money back, but have yet to make any payments or organise to do so.

Janice Harrison said her husband had maintained the marae on his own since 2002 with little reward, often paying out of his own pocket.

She said marae money had also been loaned to whanau, some of whom were living in caravans and couldn't pay their power and rent. "We made errors, yeah. A lot of the people here, they get into debt and they come and borrow the money ... and then they don't return it."

They admitted spending the money at casinos, but denied being gamblers.

The judgment reveals a BNZ employee was the first to raise concerns about expenditure from the marae accounts, noticing in March 2013 that more than $5000 had been spent at casinos and pubs. Ririnui was informed at that time.

Waaka became aware of the irregular spending in August, 2014. He organised for one of the accounts to be frozen and sought court injunctions.

Judge Clark was also critical of the Ngati Ruahine Charitable Trust, (NRCT) which transferred the Treaty money to the marae accounts, saying it had failed to monitor expenditure.

He said the trust included immediate family members of the Harrisons, and had initially not wanted the complaint taken any further.

The Harrisons are upset that Waaka went to court, instead of sorting the matter out within the marae committee.

But Judge Clark said Waaka had uncovered a "pattern of criminal offending" and trying to resolve it in-house through mediation would have been inappropriate.

Waaka said he was glad that another $400,000 of Treaty settlement money that was due to have been transferred from the NRCT had not been.

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77 comments

Wisechief

Posted on 09-08-2015 10:55 | By Wise Chief

These few are not alone when it comes to Maori Trustees. They are not always Maori but Pakeha Accountants & very high paid so called Financial and Business Consultants who are fleecing/stealing much of Maori Treaty of Waitangi Settlements Money via excessive fees and kickbacks etc. The silence over Hapu/IWI interlinked Tuwharetoa Trustees wasting $60 million with others linked with Tuhoe & Ngati Awa aka Pryors etc should be looked at by police as few Maori are willing to speak up due to threats of violence and death via elder trustees and members associated with Mongrel Mob and other Gangster influences. Very Mafia these outfits and much like todays Nats government which in fact appointed and approved most of their leaders. It was these goons who negotiated the settlements in governments favour and at massive loss to the real claimants who never got a look in. ALL Corrupt.


Probably

Posted on 09-08-2015 11:20 | By How about this view!

The tip of a national iceberg. Makes you wonder though, if this greed and contempt for fellow tribal members is evident now, what has been going-on since the 1800's???


Tautoko Wise Chief

Posted on 09-08-2015 11:57 | By hakihana

Pakeha lead the way in corruption!


Born again......

Posted on 09-08-2015 12:11 | By sambo's back

what????????.


Gee!

Posted on 09-08-2015 12:17 | By sojourner

And if they had been Muslims, Hindu, or Spiritists, would you have qualified that too?


Most

Posted on 09-08-2015 12:38 | By NZgirl

Maori Trustees are on the take this is just the tip of a huge con going on in New Zealand


WIsechief

Posted on 09-08-2015 13:08 | By Kenworthlogger

Sounds like you have some really charming whanau mate. Seems like your people have total disregard for one another.


Parasites and pillaging

Posted on 09-08-2015 14:03 | By kellbell

Nothing new in this mess funds are obtained from dubious settlements following on from past full and final settlements then are squandered or fleeced.The claims are wrong the settlements are wrong and then at the end of the gravy train we have the rorting.Everyone and I mean everyone associated with these scams should hang their heads in shame. No accountability no reporting of offences etc. then in like whippets for further top ups and feasting on their fellow Kiwis.


Disgusting

Posted on 09-08-2015 14:09 | By tuisong

Seems like Lance Waaka was the only one with any courage or integrity. Shame on these people! I feel sorry for the members of the Marae. $50,000 on tree removal? Show the receipts!


Crime is insestrual

Posted on 09-08-2015 14:37 | By I is Ruahine

Ngati Ruahine Charitable Trust who provided the funds yes indeed direct whanau to Janice and Carlo. This is indeed the next target our hapu has to attack and nip this behaviour in the butt. Do we remain as fools and let this continue or do we do something about it now before it is too late. NRCT it is time to gracefully resign or thiz can get very dirty... Waimapu Marae is beutiful in the background. Pitty about the behaviour os some people though


Suprise Suprise

Posted on 09-08-2015 14:42 | By kb

Give them a slap on the wrist and put in another claim ,they can pay back the $20,000 using there sickness benefit.It isn't their fault ,its the pakeha for giving it to them.


Good to see...

Posted on 09-08-2015 15:37 | By morepork

... that there are people with integrity and courage as well as the greedy, lazy ones. ALL NZers contribute to these settlements and anyone who rips them off is betraying not just their own immediate whanau/iwi but all of us. Lending money to people in caravans who can't pay the bills is "understandable", but that isn't what the settlement is for, and that's not YOUR money in the first place. An old adage goes:"Give a beggar a horse and he'll ride it to death." There needs to be much better Control, Accountability, and Education attached to these settlements so that this resource can make a real difference to the people who need it. There is no point in making reparations for the past if it is just wasted. Settlements are for healing and moving on; they are not troughs to put your snout in.


Why am I not surprised?

Posted on 09-08-2015 16:18 | By Tgaboy

Slow clap for the worst of the worst in this article. Bludgers too sick to contribute to society but healthy enough to spend time in casinos and bars. Sadly not surprising behaviour from this type of New Zealander. No ethics, no values and no integrity. Hang your heads in shame and may you be shunned by your own people whom you are letting down.


possum

Posted on 09-08-2015 16:56 | By Zesty

Sickness beneficiaries stealing money and spending it on booze gambling, KFC,Pizzas etc.!! Cut off their benefits,they are not sick or if they are its their own fault! Born again Christian Carlo??? LOSERS more like it! That money belongs to us good honest hard working people.People like this make me sick.


Reason

Posted on 09-08-2015 18:22 | By Capt_Kaveman

why they should be getting nothing


Reparations!

Posted on 09-08-2015 18:27 | By space cadet

Goes on all over the world. Its what happens when you take money off one sector and give it free to another. Its human nature and forgivable but we have to stop this dumb cluck Robin Hood mentality. "Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide." John Adams


Tautoko Not So wise

Posted on 09-08-2015 20:00 | By Evan57

What a load of horse crap ! This is also an insult to the equine community ? Fool .


B Hell

Posted on 09-08-2015 21:23 | By b2

Glory be . This will never end until some Govt dismantles the TOW senselessness.


On ya

Posted on 10-08-2015 08:46 | By Gigilo

B Hell, remove the breast from which they greedily suckle, impostors to a cause that provides legal privilege.


Disgusting

Posted on 10-08-2015 09:07 | By penguin

These two have displayed total lack of respect for the mana of their culture. Doing what they have done is


Wow have you forgotten Blue Chip

Posted on 10-08-2015 10:12 | By hakihana

Hello people, Hanover Finance, AMI Investment Adviser $18m ripp off, ah Blue Chip, Solid Energy this list is long and dreary. Remember that sweet old couple from Te Puke that lost their orchard due to Blue Chip??? The thousands that were affected because of Hanover. Come on people, do any of you see Mark Hotchins admitted his wrong doings, NO! It's terrible what has happened here but we (iwi) will be the ones to sort this out, not you lot and at least they're owning up.


@ b2

Posted on 10-08-2015 10:34 | By Crash test dummies

Now that is for sure the truth of it.


Tip of Iceberg

Posted on 10-08-2015 10:55 | By Crash test dummies

Of recent times it has come to light that a lot of these adhoc creative organisations have all got a case of being cleaned out. The perpetrators have been found out yet wander off back into it as if it was all ok, no recompense for the wrong doing and of course no sign of the money coming back. In this case the additional issue is that they are both beneficiaries and no doubt plenty of spare time on the hands. There is a saying about idol hands and mischief, just cant remember all the words. Perhaps Robin or Peter could get that much right?


Hakihana you are spot on,

Posted on 10-08-2015 10:55 | By robin bell

but the purpose here is to denigrate your culture. That cannot be easily done by admitting to the faults of their own culture.When and if these opinionated few develop a backbone they will see the hypocrisy of their position. Don't hold your breath. Robin Bell.


Please confirm

Posted on 10-08-2015 10:56 | By Crash test dummies

Robin, just so we are very clear, what cultural group would they be a part of? Who looses out here? Ids the money coming back? Is it being considered to be Koha or something?


How?

Posted on 10-08-2015 11:06 | By The Sage

How are they going to pay the money back that they should never have stolen in the first instance? They are on sickness benefits and have not a hope in hell. The niece, Erena Ririnui, is guilty as they are as she knew it was happening. Why aren't these places more accountable? Let's see the receipts for $50,000 of tree removal and fences. Yeah, right. Born again Christian? Doesn't seem to have made you honest or straightened you out. A throw away line rather than taking responsibility, trying to make it alright.Cancel their benefits.


The needy and the greedy

Posted on 10-08-2015 11:52 | By morepork

Greed is not constrained by ethnicity; it is a human frailty. The true test of character is what is done about it. These people have fronted up (with some prodding from others) but they need to actually DO something about taking responsibility and making reparation. On sickness benefit? OK, what have you sold and contributed back to the community you live in? What plan do you actually have to make reparation? (Talk is cheap...) This money is gone and it won't be coming back. There should be controls in place to see it doesn't happen elsewhere.


Spot on Robin

Posted on 10-08-2015 11:59 | By Kenworthlogger

This culture of ripping off your own whanau is wrong. Its not right in any other culture either as hakihana points out. Dont reakon anyone will argue againts that.


Jaffa,

Posted on 10-08-2015 12:01 | By robin bell

aka "you know who" It is ALL none of your business. You can whinge till hell freezes over,but it will change nothing. It is IWI business, not yours or any of the other whingers.IWI have their own way of doing things, they will fix it. The pittance involved here makes fraud in the non Maori world stand out like the proverbial dogs whatsits. Robin Bell.


@Space Cadet

Posted on 10-08-2015 12:05 | By morepork

A very interesting (if cynical) quote from John Adams. I prefer Churchill's: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Democracy is what we make it. If we allow vested interests and extremists to undermine it, then we can certainly lose it, but if we make sure that everyone has a voice and we emphasize positive outcomes rather than negative ones, we can maintain it. If you decide you'd prefer a benevolent dictatorship (supposedly the best form of government) please consider me as an applicant for the Boss's job... :-)


Born Again

Posted on 10-08-2015 14:50 | By Jitter

Many of these so called "Born Again Christians" are the worst fraudsters and thieves around no matter what ethnicity they are. They suddenly find God and for some reason or other think this gives them the right to take money from trusts, churches, people who don't have much to begin with. They should be charged and put through the justice system and face the consequences. All the perpetrators who ripped off the big finance companies should have been hit really hard as some of them were not like the rest who got off lightly and carried on as though nothing had happened. Those investors who trusted them will never get their money back.


Morepork. A history of Democracy,

Posted on 10-08-2015 15:39 | By robin bell

can not yet be written, because Democracy is not yet done. Mark Twain I think, or maybe Walt Whitman. Whoever it was, no doubt had 21st century New Zealand in mind, Where the founding partner can find no representation "for the people, by the people" effectively shut out by an uncaring majority. Robin Bell.


@ Robin Bell

Posted on 10-08-2015 18:37 | By The Sage

If IWI had their own way of sorting it, this sort of stuff wouldn't keep happening.


Robin Bell, hush now ...

Posted on 10-08-2015 18:58 | By Murray.Guy

Robin Bell, 'wash your mouth out'! Where the founding partner can find no representation "for the people, by the people" effectively shut out by an uncaring majority ... what a load of rubbish. Opportunities for Maori to participate in democracy, locally and nationally, goes way beyond that available to the balance of New Zealanders. Admittedly, for you and a few like-minded folk, enough will never be enough, no agreement ever set in stone. You do Maori no favours as you continue on your mission to undermine the well-being and advancement of Maori under the pretext of support.


Robin

Posted on 10-08-2015 19:10 | By Kenworthlogger

It is everyones business when a theft occurs in the comunity and thus it has been delt with in the local court by judge Stephen Clark. Iwi are not above the law and are treated accordingly regardless of the amount involved. Theft is theft.


mofo

Posted on 10-08-2015 20:42 | By The Vicar

effen mo fo's give the rest us a bad name!!


Comit the crime and do the time!

Posted on 10-08-2015 20:51 | By monty1212

They have stolen the cash full stop. Get them charged and off to court just like anyone else!


Nice joint mugshot

Posted on 10-08-2015 21:00 | By bogside

Hope they have a good explanation for the moko's - presuming they will learn the difference between right and wrong!


rip off

Posted on 10-08-2015 21:01 | By dumbkof2

they should be prosicuted in court just like anyone else


$20,000 ?

Posted on 10-08-2015 22:07 | By Roadkill

Apparently that is just some of it, there was $109,000 to start with and by what is said there $400 odd left, I don't what planet/school all went to including IWI a the support crew that is some $108,600 missing not $20,000 or so on a few casinos and a few KFCs. How about telling where the rest went and provide the authorized bills paid.


ARE WE THERE YET : PART 2

Posted on 11-08-2015 08:32 | By ROCCO

It seems Messrs Dey and Bell are being forced to face reality.They have accepted Governor Hobson's statement confirming that the Tiriti o Waitangi signed at Waitangi 6th February1840 is the only legitimate treaty and have also accepted that the Littlewood draft was used for the translation into maori.Neither document has any reference to partnerships, treaty principles, or lakes rivers forests seabeds kitchen sinks etc. which are modern day PC political and judicial fictions.Tauranga settlements were fully and finally dealt with by the TaurangaMoana Trust Board Act 1981 yet unbelievably in 2012 NgatiRanginui got another $38million.From this NgatiRuahine got inter alia this $109,000+plus of which $108600 has gone down the gurgler leaving only $400.Waitangi claims, the settlements, Govt. approvals are shams and moneys received via these aberrations are of concern to all KIWI citizens. Govt.should audit settlement funds for 5 years.Solution stop claims, stop payouts, disband WTF biased WaitangiTribunal.Problems solved.


TROUGH ALWAYS FULL!

Posted on 11-08-2015 10:42 | By crazyhorse

Waimapu Marae is not the first entity to have treaty settlement cash go missing.


IWI HAVE THEIR OWN WAY

Posted on 11-08-2015 10:54 | By crazyhorse

Of sorting this out, this being theft and fraud. Yeah we have seen that in Whanau ora and Kohanga Reo,plenty of theft, but, no one brought to justice!, People keep bringing up white collar fraud, the majority of these people are held accountable under the law, even Robby's mate honest Dougy Graham found that out, shows you the calibre of the people associated with the troughing "industry"!. Perhaps someone could name a few troughers who were actually brought to justice. Anyone heard from Sonny Tau lately I bet the only person sweating about this is the poor bugger that nabbed him, that old boy has given a few people a head ache eh?.


Not a race or cultural issue

Posted on 11-08-2015 11:12 | By Annalist

The problem of the misappropriation of money is not associated with any particular group. It covers all spectrums of society from professionals to workers to bludgers, and should be condemned in all cases. I also wonder how many politicians have used taxpayer funds to effectively pay for or subsidise their own overseas "holidays" or should I say fact finding visits?


@ Annalist

Posted on 11-08-2015 11:52 | By The Sage

The Politicians and their taxpayer funded trips are an entirely different issue. Let's deal with the issue in front of us with theft from the Marae and Treaty money.


Pay it back !

Posted on 11-08-2015 12:26 | By SonnyJim

How many others are ducking for cover?


@Robin Bell (Morepork. A history...)

Posted on 11-08-2015 12:38 | By morepork

Sorry, Robin, your comment was correctly smacked down by Murray Guy. Maybe try being a little less fanatical?


Let's be clear...

Posted on 11-08-2015 12:52 | By morepork

Leaving aside all the inevitable racism this item has provoked, the fact remains that theft occurred. All of the "extenuating circumstances", any lack of understanding regarding who "owns" money held in trust for others and the procedure of transparency and acccountability regarding the disbursement of it, in fact, ALL of the factors in play here, should be properly presented in a Court of Law, because we run our country under the Law. A jury then decide what they believe regarding the facts of the case, with due regard for the viewpoints of all parties. Finally a sentence is passed. It is not for us to second-guess what it should be, but we could reasonably expect some kind of reparation to be required. There has to be ONE Law for ALL, and NOBODY is allowed to circumvent it by way of culture, background, wealth or anything else. Respect, Understanding, Equality.


Sorry Rocco, your not even close.

Posted on 11-08-2015 13:22 | By robin bell

Ask yourself a few questions (if your capable). Try these, If only 40 Northern Chiefs were required to cede the whole country to the British, Why bother sending the other 8 copies around, over the next few months. If there was no English language copy signed at Waikato/ Manakau on 11-4-1840 with the words clearly stating Lands, Estates, Forests and Fisheries, is the copy viewed a forgery, an illusion or what. Google it, its interactive, you can read the words in article two clearly. That signing validates the English language version as sure as hens lay eggs. Robin Bell.


ROCCO

Posted on 11-08-2015 13:37 | By MARAUDING MOUSE

Yes, there is no other conclusion to be reached from the evidence, all the evidence. What you say covers all the facts and reality of it. Tiriti o Waitangi signed 6th February 1840 is the only legitimate treaty and have also accepted that the Littlewood draft was used for the translation into Maori. There is absolutely no doubt about this and the clear message it provides. Sadly the absolute simplicity of that gets past some with a far from real claim from a false interpretation.


Waikato signing 11-4-1840

Posted on 11-08-2015 13:47 | By MARAUDING MOUSE

Yes, that was a forged document, how can you claim that there is a binding agreement when Hobson never signed it, stated it as a fraud/not real. The rest is al history as they say.


@ Robin Bell

Posted on 11-08-2015 14:20 | By The Sage

Your last sentence makes the similarity between the sureness of laying eggs as validating the English language. Well there are too many rotten eggs in this nest.


Morepork,you are wrong,

Posted on 11-08-2015 15:36 | By robin bell

yet again allowing your penchant for "advice" get in the way of fact. Everyday civil "crime" goes unreported. The Police do not act until a complaint is made. In this case the Hapu in question choose to do it their way, rather than involve the Police. They, like all citizens have that right. You may well feel you have some right to interfere with due process, but you don't,nor does Murray Guy who knows full well that the political aspirations of our founding partner cannot be served under the present shut out. Robin Bell.


ROCCO, why is the Hobson English Treaty so important?

Posted on 11-08-2015 15:44 | By Peter Dey

Our English version of the Treaty of Waitangi was made official by Governor Hobson. ROCCO should tell us why it is so important to him to deny what Governor Hobson did. What Does ROCCO think that the Hobson English version grants to Maori that the Maori version does not?


Robin

Posted on 11-08-2015 16:04 | By Kenworthlogger

Thank god the law does not listen to your rubbish and has charged them accordinly. End of story.


Meanwhile back at the Marae

Posted on 11-08-2015 16:12 | By The Sage

They are $20 K short and these two who stole the money are sitting on sickness benefits seemingly doing nothing to make any reparation. Don't you call that "double dipping?" They are taking Government Benefits while spending treaty settlement money, which also comes from the Government. Maybe WINZ should be looking at prosecuting them.


Hobson English Treaty is important

Posted on 11-08-2015 17:36 | By Secret Squirrel

Because it was translated to the Tiriti o Waitangi and it as signed by Hobson, the queens representative. Get the picture.


GOOD OLD CLAUDIA

Posted on 12-08-2015 08:02 | By crazyhorse

Claudia Orange was the first Historian to see the Littlewood draft after it was discovered. Her first words on viewing the document were to the effect of:


From out of nowhere

Posted on 12-08-2015 14:51 | By I is Ruahine

They have taken more than 20K... Since January this year first court sitting they said that they do not have any receipts to account for nearly 60K and all of a sudden on the 3rd and last court sitting receipts appeared... definitely in need of a forensic audit.


@Robin Bell

Posted on 12-08-2015 15:36 | By morepork

I have offered no advice anywhere. I don't presume to tell others what to do. Just like everybody else here, I have expressed opinions; I believe I have that right even if you don't agree with them. In this particular case, it isn't me who is wrong. A complaint was laid to police; that cannot be ignored. As for Hapu, Iwi, or anybody else deciding not to press charges, that is entirely a matter for the people concerned and the situation. In this situation "Other people's money" was involved and that may lead to the police laying charges. I can't imagine what twisted reality you inhabit that makes theft OK as long as no-one complains about it. That's not justice, it is intimidation.


Claudia?

Posted on 12-08-2015 20:20 | By MISS ADVENTURE

it was all just so horrid that the genuine Littlewood treaty appeared from nowhere, from its resting place in the US from 1840, where it had always been known to be.


Who's checking who

Posted on 13-08-2015 02:27 | By tari.wye

Was a parent at a Kohanga and discovered dodgy spending. The truth was swept under the carpet after being dealt with in house. Took my kids out. Not enough checks balances or accountability. Who's checking who.


Yeah?

Posted on 13-08-2015 13:50 | By Joanne

@Born Again. Is that right? I know many born-again Christians who give their money, time and resources to help those in desperate need without expecting anything in return. As any adult would know, try not to tar everyone with the same brush, unless you have a personal agenda, of course.


FACTS BEAT FICTIONAL MISTRUTHS

Posted on 13-08-2015 20:49 | By ROCCO

Messrs Dey & Bell continue to rabbit on ad nauseum.Let me repeat once again there is one Tiriti o Waitangi(maori version) and there is no English Treaty.There are of course English drafts the final Hobson draft being what has become known as the 'Littlewood Draft' that essentially cross translates word for word with the maori treaty.I am only interested in the historical accuracy of the treaty and other than that the treaty holds no real interest for me as it is simply an historical relic that has had its day.The overwhelming importance of the Littlewood Draft is that it confirms the correct English translation of the maori treaty. What is of real concern is that some deviants try to interpret the treaty but more likely what is not contained in the treaty to suit their special agendas and self interest regarding it as the Holy Grail which it isn't


IMO

Posted on 14-08-2015 09:33 | By Anbob

I have made my opinions on the Treaty known before, they are the Treaty is open to interpretation and ambiguous. For those reasons, and for it


ROCCO, the Littlewood draft is a poor translation

Posted on 14-08-2015 09:41 | By Peter Dey

ROCCO, there have been many translations of te Tiriti o Waitangi into English. The Littlewood draft compared with the most careful translations is not accurate. It is not accurate for kawanatanga (government) and rangatiratanga (unqualified chieftainship). Littlewood wrongly uses sovereignty and possession. If the Waitangi Tribunal used the Littlewood draft instead of the Hobson English Treaty it would make no difference to Tribunal decisions. Those, like ROCCO, who cannot speak Maori but want to argue about Maori translations are being ridiculous.


Stick to the issue - PLEASE!

Posted on 14-08-2015 10:35 | By SonnyJim

General note to correspondents; please address the topic and not slide off on your pet-peeve tangents.


ROCCO perhaps

Posted on 14-08-2015 11:43 | By robin bell

You should read other publications.I recommend those of Dr Donald Loveridge B.A M.A in history. He forensically examined the claims made by Martin Doutre and the claims he makes regarding the "Littlewood document". His conclusion,I can find no evidence to support Doutre's proposition.Doutre cannot explain why Hobson,Busby,Williams or Clendon ever stated or implied that the Official English text dated 6-2-1840 was NOT the one that provided the basis for the Maori text.Busby in particular was a pedant, who surely would have made an issue of it,in his subsequent arguments with the Crown. Robin Bell.


Trev

Posted on 14-08-2015 12:58 | By Pete KELLY

Well said 'Wise chief'.ALL races,of all colours and creed are capable of 'ripping' one another off -- given the chance.It's called 'greed', we're all guilty to some degree.Some get away with it, some get caught out.


KEEP PULLING THE HISTORIANS OUT OF THE HAT

Posted on 14-08-2015 20:16 | By ROCCO

Mr.Bell, you are clutching at long-shot straws again. The recently deceased Dr.DonaldLoveridge was originally from Canada and emigrated to NZ in 1982 so like yourself, he was not even born in NZ. His assessment of and assertions on the LittlewoodDraft have been debunked. As an historian retained by the biased WTFWaitangi Tribunal to assist with historical settlements this comes as no surprise. It's worth noting that Dr.PhilParkinson of the AlexanderTurnbull library has conclusively identified the handwriting on the LittlewoodDraft as that of Busby and therefore the document is certainly authentic. Turning to Busby you say he was pedant which has little relevance to the matter in hand. He was notoriously unsuccessful in most things he attempted and couldn't as I recall even spell 'sovereignty' correctly .Just remember the only legitimate version of the treaty is the maori version translated from the 'LittlewoodDraft' and you will be on the righttrack


Its just money,

Posted on 16-08-2015 16:10 | By GregAKL

all money is debt, read the small print. The fault lies in poor governance of the trust. In case the TOW, English was the only official language, to place Maori language in any legal contract is an historical anachronism, how many Chiefs could even read?


Has the dust settled yet??

Posted on 17-08-2015 09:23 | By robin bell

Murray Guy attacks my support for Maori, against those who seek to discredit.I don't speak with forked tongue, I tell it like it is,it is this Murray and morepork can't handle. We can all be idealists, sadly that won't address the problems these comments represent.They are all linked to the same problem, the inability of many non-Maori to adjust to the new found recognition of massive past injustice. In their failure to acknowledge these injustices and those that remain, Guy and morepork place themselves firmly in the camp of those who deny these injustices. Robin Bell.


@ GregAKL

Posted on 17-08-2015 13:38 | By Crash test dummies

at the time of the signing on 6/2/1840 and shortly thereafter, the was a written language, that was "created" by the missionaries of the day. The Maori version was translated from English (the littlewood final draft the night before) it was read out on 6/2/1840 for the very reason you state, none could read as there was no written language.


Spot on Greg

Posted on 17-08-2015 14:14 | By Kenworthlogger

Excellent point greg. Are there any documents before or around the time of the tow showing that maori actually could read and write. Documents that are written in maori by maori and not white settlers? Im going to guess NO.


EASY AS THE ABC.

Posted on 17-08-2015 17:15 | By CONDOR

@Greg and Kenworthlogger whether all the maori chiefs signing the treaty could read maori was irrelevant as the treaty was read out in maori and fully explained to them by Williams. As I recall and they asked numerous questions and made robust comments on the provisions.There is no doubt they understood exactly what was going on and knew what they were signing.The reason the treaty was in the maori language only is because that was international convention at the time ie. that the language had to be that of the country in which it was being signed.Hope that clears it up for you both.Incidentally I don't think Hobson could read maori anyway. !!


ROCCO, Henry Williams deviated from the Littlewood draft

Posted on 17-08-2015 18:05 | By Peter Dey

ROCCO, it is clear that when Henry Williams produced the Maori version of the Treaty of Waitangi he used Maori words that the chiefs would support but which had different meanings from the English words approved by Governor Hobson. If Henry Williams had translated the Littlewood draft accurately into Maori then the chiefs would not have signed it. However te Tiriti o Waitangi does guarantee Maori everything they need to be treated fairly, so arguments about English translations is irrelevant.


ROCCO, it was not translated from the Littlewood draft

Posted on 17-08-2015 19:06 | By Peter Dey

ROCCO, the Littlewood draft may well have been the final English draft used to produce te Tiriti o Waitangi but the Littlewood draft was not translated into te Tiriti o Waitangi. We know this because they are not exact translations. So the Littlewood draft is irrelevant. This is probably why Claudia Orange ignores it.


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